Checat

Yes, exactly. Thank you kevbone for being that ignorant climber who makes it really easy to make the point that we as climbers aren't showing enough consideration in the wild places where we visit. Obviously I think that an all-encompassing bolting ban is absurd, but its ignorant attitudes like yours that lead to indiscriminate and disgusting bolting practices that give rock-climbers a bad name. When they appoint me climbing czar I'm going to ban you from all climbing areas

kevbone please keep thinking that this place is a huge waste of rock because your the last person I would want joining the fun out there.

Your cracking my shit up with this hobbit trail business. Are you taking cracks at my height? I've certainly been made fun of for being short, just never over the web...

Now your talking. And as you know Lee, I used to work in a gear shop so I saw this first-hand. Probably the root of the imbalance towards bolting is at the heart of the capitalistic interests of the rock-climbing industry. You think they'd be selling all that flashy garb and bull bells and whistles to some dirty hippie like me. Hell no, sport-climbing lines the pockets of the powers that be and that is where the heart and soul of rock-climbing is lost...

See I thought this was going so civil and then you have to go and make a dick assumption like that. A climbers resume isn't based on how much there willing to spray over the internet. If anybody takes anything away from this thread it should be that. Who is to say that 50 years from now the same widely accepted attitudes towards chipping holds won't be applied towards bolting climbs. Maybe we'll all be "base-soloing", barefoot and chalkless like Dean...

I have. I also have studied up on constructive pin usage, and have shown people that if done right, brass, beaks, peckers, etc... can take the place of a lot of pin usage. I've used pins at the area that this thread is dedicated to but you wouldn't be able to identify where... There is a big difference between modern pin usage and the pin practices of the early days of rock-climbing. I think with the advent of new technology and new techniques and practices it is our obligation as climbers to raise our standards to the rock rather than bringing the rock down to our level(bolting).

pins can be removed and leave no trace (subjective, arguable) chalk washes away, trails get overgrown, etc... Bolts don't go anywhere. and the holes they leave behind, no matter how much filler you put in, will leave trace...

I don't know, I've yet to receive my appointment as National Climbing Czar but I'll take a stab at it: If said area saw no visitors for an extended period of time (months, days, years ?), after that period of time, if a non-climber were to stumble upon the area they would have every reason to believe that they were discovering something new, a wild place that had been previously untouched by human hands... try that one on for size...

Not trying to pick on your response but you prove my point so well: Who says that "Cragging is inseperable from convenience"? To be honest about said crag in question, it is in the backcountry and at times can seem to border on Alpine status: but in reality its not, its a crag, and I don't think that just because it is a crag it shouldn't be held in the highest ethical regard... I think the problem with this issue is its like the old saying about "sport climbing" being neither a "sport" or "climbing"- climbing ethics is a redundant concept; or maybe I'm just being too pessimistic...

not only will the routes that I have developed out there remain bolt free, but all at this area will remain bolt free. I'm not discouraged by your comments because in fact you are embodying my initial intent in starting this thread: Oregonians have no conception of climbing without bolts, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand why. Smith Rocks has basically genetically coded into our way of being and something is wrong about that. Trying to spread awareness about the feasibility of Zero-bolt climbing areas doesn't just open the door for future developers to understand that some areas can be developed with no-bolts; I hope that it also makes people take a look at the way in which they are bolting routes. Take Flagstone as an example: people were developing routes there with well-spaced, risk-incurring practices for years and years. But what does the climber encounter today- Grid Bolted Mayhem, and in my mind the hugest black eye to the Oregon climbing scene. I am embarresed(sp.) to take people from out the state there because it makes us all seem like a bunch of wankers. Bolt spacing is purely subjective. To the best of my knowledge there is only two places where these practices are actually regulated:City of Rocks and J-Tree (please someone correct me on this because I would love to know that more intervention is occurring on a national level). Zero-Bolts is not subjective. It means zero-bolts.

Bryan - this thread is about the Lack... and yes we do need to get back out there together, are you back in the great state of Oregon?

I feel you on these points. More climbers need to read the works of Laura and Guy Waterman. But in the whole grand scheme of necessary evils for the sake of recreational activities: where do places like Flagstone fit in(areas where you can clip 2 bolts from a single stance)?

"they exist lots of other places, and are successful and popular". OK, where and what crags? And as far as HTButte goes, I said ZERO-BOLTS, not essentially ZERO

No I don't own the property it sits on. And you are proving the point I've tried to make for the last five years in trying to convince my higher authorities (in regard to the crag) of the necessity of a guidebook to inform and instill good ethics among all that visit the area. But recently I've gone off the climbing deep end and understand that the relevancy of this place is not a means to its own ends...This area, and the values of the practices there needs to have relevancy to more Oregon climbers, more U.S. climbers, more climbers globally...

I would say that presenting an actual "leave no trace" mentality within the sport of climbing is much more relevant than giving people a place to practice techniques is much more my aim. Has anyone actually stopped to think that while we accept bolts as a part of climbing, its not something mother nature is really down with?

Its a reality for me. Hell I've even written a guidebook to Shangri La, but I won't be content until people start thinking that it can be a reality for others...

If you know much about the area that I am running the risk of "outing" you know that it won't make a bit of difference for me to promote it or not...it probably won't change the number of people who frequent it. I guess I am posting this thread to prove to myself (and maybe the few of you out there that know what the hell I'm talking about) that it is truly one of a kind, AND THAT IS A PROBLEM. Wouldn't you say its a downright shame that more places like it don't exist? How can we expect anything different if we continue to cloak it in secrecy?

Nope, not even for anchors...

For how many people out there is this a reality? And obviously I mean a roped crag (not bouldering, not alpine)

Early in this threads existance someone winked in Moolack along with areas like ozone, area 51, cougar, etc... when people started making comparisions to how trout creek developed/re-developed in relative obscurity. Having taken a lot of heat for years for my attempts at putting together a guide for moolack, I can only point out that keeping great records of people ascents as history occurs(which I've tried to do there) dismisses all the ambigouity surrounding these hush hush areas, and years later people appreciate. I think we collectivly as climbers would love to know more and more about trout, moolack, jannu spires, detroit res... etc... and by doing the things he's done (bugabooed aka TC author) he has at the very minimum brought the area and its history into perspective for all of us to having this debate: Good job bugaboo, cascade climbers are generally aloof to areas outside smiff, col riv gorg etc... just my take peace

Dishman ROck?

Just found the primary thread in the Climber's Board. If anyone only comes looking in Oregon head over there.

I'm sure the people closer to him who normally post on this website are still coping with this and will post over time, thought it is important to recognize the loss of a legend in Oregon rock-climbing: Jim Anglin. A report is available from Oregon Live.com. I'm not savvy to links so if someone takes this over, no prob. Still reeling from it myself I thought others who knew of him and his exploits should know. It happened on Sunday

billcoe, I'm no skiwhore, but work in a shop so have to sit through a lot of clinics. The best new presented from my humble opinion is Marker's new line, (includes the jester, but not limited to it, forgot the second name). I work with guys that absolutely hate Marker, and those that absolute love marker. Cost aside these puppies look like they might just foot the bill for what your looking for, or will at least offer a good comparison to others. I spend 99.9% of my time on rock, so don't take this as sage advice... P

This is horrible. He brought an energy to the Oregon rock-climbing community that can never be replaced.