Checat

Elitist ownership of public land. And its not just as elitist to bolt a line thus setting a sport precedence before all boltless trad applications have been exhausted? Its ok because more people clip bolts and there is safety in that mass of humanity huh?

speak for yourself and not other Oregonians in terms of the CRG being all that we got. portlandians then, checat. i don't want to drive 3.5 hrs if i don't have to in order to climb and if one doesn't want to climb in the gorge then that is what you are left with - drive to smiff or drive to washington's crags... I can relate on being a former border jumper. There was a time I may have made an argument that as a former Ashland Oregon climber, with a 1-2 day climbing window Lost Rocks or Castle Crags often won out over heading north or east - then I started going everywhere, realized Oregon's I-5 corridor top to bottom is just as stellar - there are just way more secretive crags with secretive climbers

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Depends on your climbing interests. In that particular situation he adapted, as any good self serving climber would and got stronger in areas he needed to to best enjoy his local climbing, but overall climbers are a finicky bunch when it comes to what hits the good... don't get me wrong washington kicks ass. I could go all day as far as how great washington climbing is - its just been my experience that different folks have varying views of what climbing kicks ass

[quote=LostCamKenny the gorge is all we have down here speak for yourself and not other Oregonians in terms of the CRG being all that we got. same thing for smith. To limit Oregon rock-climbing into the Columbia River Gorge and Smith underestimates what the state has to offer. No beef with what your saying in terms of the back and forth, just watch yourself in terms of summing up what the state has to offer in comparison to WA. I have a buddy who moved to Mazama region and still misses Oregon, for a whole set of different reasons in terms of climbing that have doesn't revolve around Granite vs. No Granite...

First Ascent, Sharp End, Hard Grit 2nd tier - Free Hueco, West Coast Pimps, Friction Addiction... All lowells original old stuff of sharma is pimp too...

yes, all 1670 were pointless

While I dig on anyone putting information on the loads acquired in a slackline scenario I have to agree with josephH that there is an financial exploitation of slacklining that goes beyond what the climbing industry does for climbers. You don't need to spend that much money on a line and go with a commercial outfitter to get a simple slackline going. I used to work in a climbing gear shop and I'd talk people out of online ordering from these snake oil salesmen all the time. If your going to splurge- two simple petzl swingline pulleys, thats it. Throw coin down for the webbing and carabiners your robbing from your normal climbing gear and call it good. "slackline express", "slackline bros" etc... its all a crock - once you start walking the thing (not high lines) you won't even need the pulleys anymore unless your doing big, long high lines and in that case you don't need the "slackline bro's" to sell you crap, be a climber, figure out some solutions! Sorry to rant, I just don't like how a bunch of unemployed climbers get a foot up pilking cash from newbies trying to learn how to slackline. Webbing, carabiners, trees. When you get good go to thinner webbing, its like going from 5.9 to 5.10 slacklining

The above photo is not of a secret place. It is of a well established area that has had hectic weekends in the last couple years. There are boulder problems on the boulder that I'm standing on for this photo that were established in the mid to late 90's. I've climbed on the problems below this small cliffband a number of times between 2001 and 2005. I'm only heading there now and taking up a crowbar cause of a new baby, and its proximity to mi casa (oh yeah and 5 years of new routing at a trad area has me still on the roped development kick). 36 minutes from my doorway, new 5.9 in a really established hard bouldering area. You guys want some moss be gone... check this before and after shot. Its not nearly as compelling as those folks whitewashing the Dropzone. I only spent 45 seconds pulling the bottom feet and first finger jam clean of this little V0. 10 minutes and multiple problems in store though? Not too shabby after for an after work circuit.

Both, depends on the situ. Obviously loose rock is a whole lot more reason to cleaning before jumping on lead than a little bit of moss.

Its what I look for on unclimbed rock or old aid relic crags... How many folks made the link? As in...

Ethics are subjective...Many will say it many different ways...

Bernd Arnold, yeah he's totally lazy. Schrammstene. No new bolting. No cams. No nuts. No chalk. Soft webbing slung into cracks and thread thrus for pro. Scope the climbing porn The Sharp End. If you didn't know, now you know... Putting bolts in rock is HARDLY THE WORLD STANDARD. Just because we americans apply bolts and sport climbing to all the areas we branch out and vacation to doesn't mean there isn't a rich history in clean ethics. Kevbone you should think twice before speaking for the world. http://www.travelpod.com/cache/attr_maps/Elbe_Sandstone_Mountains-Bad_Schandau.gif http://www.saechsische-schweiz.de/start/click.system?lang=en

"World standard". Hardly. everywhere is different, shaped by the localized standard. Kevbone world standard maybe.

this is why i started aiding... Been aiding since 2002, in and out of the rain. Doesn't change my attitude about necessary plastic training. As fun as aid is it will not help break thru the 5.11+/5.12- free barrier...

I hate being stuck on plastic when its raining. I hate when people bolt next to a crack. I hate going elbow to elbow at crags. I hate when people put anchor bolts at the top of a climb within 5 feet of a tree or slung boulder anchor. I love that there is a diversity of rock in oregon requiring a variety of ethics and tools for climbing. I love that my favorite climbing area is bolt free and will always stay that way. I love that that place has a long drive and has a biatch of an approach keeping away those that would ruin it with bolts. P.s. I'm saddened by Spring Mountain and look to places like Ramona Creek Crag for the future of boltless cragging in Oregon.

This sounds like a different issue. Like some asshole bolted a line that had already been climbed. That was not the case in this thread. Thought we were beyond simply the one route in question. The author identified "re-development" in the case at Mill Creek Canyon as unknowningly bolting routes that were former bolt-less. Thus the advantages of a well developed guidebook...

cja, you should get a lot of response, or at least you should flame or no flame. As someone who has spent a great deal of time climbing and developing at a completely bolt-less area - this question is constantly there for me. Being a boltless crag each developer has the obligation to re-clean their routes year to year if they expect others to climb it. As other developers moved on from the area I've even taken on the task of re-cleaning their old lines to hold a torch to their efforts (because I think FAing and development and all the values associated is important). A lot of developers bolt for the wrong reasons- sometimes due to this notion that if there isn't a bolt there, the route ceases to exist. Poor form. What has this led to, guidebook development. Presenting boltless routes to future developers may at least give pause to unneeded bolts. The most recent Alpinist presents an article from Lisa Hathaway focusing on these very issues at Mill Creek Canyon Utah, an area not much bigger than the crags referenced in this thread, but one much more on a national stage of awareness. She emphasized how disappointed initial developers were to find routes that they had climbed for years without bolts with zero problems, suddenly bolted because of the nature of modern crag development. She mentions mixed bolt/gear routes as an obscure thing, but if you climb around portland this is a very common concept. My question back to you is: Is putting a bolt in the only way to prevent a route from "going back to the wilds 4 years from now"? p.s. short answer to your "back to the wilds" question - CLIMB THE ROUTE, get more of your buddies to quit clipping bolts and teach em to place cams. A route doesn't have to have bolts for people to climb them and all too often that "bolt it and they will come" attitude rules out, which is b-shit.

Amen JosephH (in aid perspective which is hardly what this thread is about), not just for this particular area but others throughout the state. Aid is great, but evaluate the most modern clean practices before pinning!

If karma catches up with those kids there going to be hit by a bus next time they are hanging around cliff tops near bible colleges...

Glad your still with us! This shot of a Jameson's for you! To long thriving climbing careers!

Your right that no one is interested in anti-bolt spray in a forum about Lead Bolting ethics. This Marc developer and other developers would be much more interested in how bolts can go up in a Positive way - so- Pertinent to the topic "Lead Bolting Ethics...". You are saying that I am calling out good friends of yours - this is in references to the Tvedts and the bolts they have placed at Flagstone, correct? Do you agree that there should be bolts every 3-4 feet on a low angle slab? Do you agree with bolts that were not involved with a routes first ascent but were added later for the sake of a larger mass appeal? It wouldn't be a waste of time - as another poster stated - if there was at least some discussion over what "good" bolting practices are. Corvallisclimb - you bolt, why don't you bring something to the table instead of focusing on a broken record(Bolts vs. No-Bolts). How should this Marc person go about his plight stylistically? BTW As far as -"You act like you know fucking everything and everyone on here is wrong and a total wanker" - Climbing ethics is completely subjective. What is true for you may not be true for others. I'm actually in agreement with a great number of people that have posted on this topic that have focused on what the climbers before Marc have done in regard to his route development dilemma.

I'm not necessarily against all bolting. But if you are a point in your climbing career where you are consulting the internet on whether or not a bolt should placed and how that bolt should go in - you probably shouldn't be bolting. Leave it to those interested in understanding the area they are climbing/developing in and show discretion. It should be a process of a.should the bolt go in? b. what is the best ethics, styles and tactics for the ascent of the route? c. Can _(insert potential developers name here)__ adequately bolt and climb the route in that ethic/style/tactic? Too often people skip to the wrong question - d. what is going to have to happen for _"ME!"(unsuitable potential developers name here) ___ to develop this line at all costs? Overused Oregonian example to the case in point: the Tvedts and whatever midgets they were manicuring routes at Flagstone for comes to mind.

You set the bar high for posting on this website while saying absolutely nothing jefe, so you should do what you were doing before, not weigh in because all you do is flame and troll without any real climbing discussion. This is a rock-climbing forum right? I bet you theres websites out there for people that are simply worried about talking smack to others and they are full of people who don't know shit about rock-climbing, you'd do well there.

Never said it climbs and protects like granite. Just would let you know because you obviously don't know much - that its a quality rock to climb on. And to any ignoramouses like yourself that assume all Oregon has is tuft and basalt - Keep climbing at Smith, us Oregonians are pretty content to keep the other good stuff to ourselves.