JosephH

I don't have anymore of the CMI pins, but I have as many conventional pins as you need for existing, non-clean, aid lines if fixing any of those pin placements will prevent damage to the rock.

It must be an interesting to live in a world where there are only opinions and no facts - wow, just make up any shit you want. Cool. Build a consensus of nonsense and you can no doubt justify bolting anything. The only thing I posted above that is opinion, is what I think about 'safe' climbing and Winter Delight's X-ness. Outside of that it is a fact that all the people I listed above have free climbed pretty much any route you can name exactly as they are today. It is fact that I didn't remove any necessary pins from any route. It is a fact it hasn't been raining pins off routes out there and they aren't changed from earlier free ascents. And it's a fact 85% of the anchor bolts replaced were bad, while only 25% or so of the pins were. Facts and opinions, you actually have to work pretty hard to screw up the difference between them and those are facts - each and every one of them - none are a matter of opinion. You guys can have as many flat-Earth opinions as you want, but it doesn't change the facts. Again, don't like Beacon scarefests? Don't climb them.

All of the above is fact, every word of it. Period. A 'consensus' of lies, innuendo, misremembrances, and incorrect statements doesn't alter any of the facts involved and that's in effect what you're talking about. I have no doubt whatsoever you and others can fabricate the 'reality' you need in order to justify retrobolting at Beacon. No, I replaced anchors and for essentially every sling you see there was a sling or chain there prior to the replacement. I've placed some pins on my FAs, I haven't placed a pin on an existing route where there wasn't one previously. I can only imagine what you consider dangerous. No, as I just said, those routes have all seen multiple free leads exactly as they are right now. You wish they "probably used pins" only because you can't envision it otherwise - the reality is they did not. No one has pulled any pins from those routes and they have not fallen out either - they're just stout, old school endeavors. Climb something else if you aren't up to the challenge. Many times and you don't sound like someone who climbs anything but 'safe' routes. You won't know unless you climb it. Again, what you want is not possible without retrobolting an existing line.

Maybe elsewhere, and particularly in granite, but not out at Beacon. In 2007 I checked the soundness of all the pins across the South Face on every route and either found them sound, reset them if loose, or replaced them if corroded (with John Middendorf's spare pin rack bought for the purpose). This came on the heels of replacing 68 anchor sets. In 54 of the 68 anchor sets both bolts were bad or spinners; a whopping 85% were bad. By contrast, only about 25% of the pins required any maintenance and most all of those were way older than the bad bolts. So, as I said, at Beacon, the pins have vastly outperformed the bolts. When you clip an old pin out at Beacon on any of the trade routes you can bet they are likely way more bomb than any of the old protection bolts on those same routes. That would require retrobolting one of the lines that are there. That would be one person's opinion. It's not one I share, nor do many others. The split-shank, buttonhead bolts used at Beacon are way, way burlier than any modern bolt ever sunk, the one I did try to remove burned two new Lennox Sawzall blades without so much as a nick and either of those blades would have gone through 20 5-pc bolts like butter. The only question with those old buttonheads is the condition of the hangers. No you don't know any such facts. Ask Olson, Wallace, Cartier, Nakahira, Yoder, Stiefel, Lyford, Sowerby, pink or any of the others if they were using pins on their many free ascents of any line of your choice - they weren't - they free climbed them with exactly what's there today. And anyone who claims I pulled a necessary pin on any line - let alone a line I haven't climbed - is flat out a liar, period. I removed three - count'em - three small, worthless angles which wouldn't hold falls and were in obvious placements that each take solid pro (and none of the three were on any of the lines you're talking about). In fact, the reality is just the opposite, I replaced about a half-dozen pins that Opdycke said had been pulled and stolen in the intervening years. There is no other story, and anyone who claims there is has no idea what they're talking about and never talked with me about what was done or not done. All facets of this statement are patently false in every respect. Winter Delight is not X rated and there is no way of doing what you want without retrobolting an existing line.

There are a lot of scarefests at Beacon. There was place-and-remove pin use back when lines out there were aided, but as free climbs they didn't use the technique and all those lines have gone free as they are. There is the odd case here and there a pin was taken, but Bluebird Direct is not one of them. To quote Olson: I'm personally completely against retrobolting existing lines at Beacon for any reason, but particularly to make them 'safer'. Given my age, and with a daughter up at UW, I can certainly empathize with both being a family man and, in my case, being old, but that's the cycle of life and the choices we make for ourselves. Other folks are younger, single and either haven't made those choices yet, or chose differently, and are up for assuming more risk and challenges than you or I. So there's just no good reason I can see for retrobolting to remove risks on existing lines for those of us who made choices we consider incompatible with the risks associated with some of them. Start down that slope and someone else comes along and want's things 'safer' than the next guy and pretty soon you've thrown open the door to with a lowest-common-denominator approach to retrobolting. From my perspective that sort of retrobolting is the antithesis of what Beacon is all about. It also wouldn't be in line with Opdycke's mantra of "keeping it real". That, and there are plenty of other great lines to climb out there which protect just fine. [ Note: The pins out at Beacon way outperformed the bolts of the same eras and are every bit as solid as them, so it's not like a pin out there represents a 'lesser' or less secure form of fixed pro by any means. ]

Of course! Let's get money from people who don't have any. Dude, the treasury will score BIG!!! Now why didn't we think of that sooner?

Yes, exactly, those very same people...

Snow is one of the republicans who demanded the offsets, check it yourself - they are wholly of republican origin. And how would you pay for extending tax cuts for the wealthy?

Well, not sure about the number thing, but if you want to come down to Beacon sometime I could take you up 'Little Wing' out there...

You're in denial. The Democrats voted for it, Obama signed it. Nobody "forced" them to do anything. Are you retarded? The republicans who voted for the bill demanded the offsets as the price of their votes and the cash had to come from somewhere; no democrat wanted to cut those programs nor would they have if not for those crossover republicans. Do I hear you and republicans screaming for similar offsets to pay for any extension of W's giveaway to the rich? I'm sure some wealthy folks will end up on foodstamps if those unpaid for tax cuts aren't extended.

Don't get me wrong either, I knew Obama's Illinois everything-is-a-compromise roots, his lets-not-get-too-far-out-there pragmatism, and his concern for the polls would trump all the campaign talk. I was for Hillary personally, she wouldn't have wasted two years trying to talk the republicans to death, she'd have been beating them with a club right out of the gate. Obama choosing Geithner is all you needed to know about where he was headed.

That's because the moron's, formerly known as republicans, forced the democrats to "pay" for the stimulus up front which was moronic in every respect. It really isn't 'stimulus' if you simply shuffle it from one pocket to another. It's really a matter of belief whether we should be doing debt-subsidized government spending to prevent this recession from turning into a depression. If the government doesn't spend and it all goes south as a result then all you mouthy bastards will be screaming for government spending then. Pretty ignorant all the way around.

Whoa there Bill. Let's be clear that the Lehman Bros. decision and TARP belong to W's crew. Just like the two wars, Obama and his crew inherited the mess. Now you can quibble about how they have subsequently handled the situation. But donations or no, this particular aspect of the overall fiasco is W's baby. The 'bailout' part Obama owns is Geithner's plan to use remaining TARP funds to buy toxic assets from banks. His 'Public-Private Investment Program' (P-PIP) is in my view a giveaway to the very sharks who fueled this problem and a bad idea in that it rewards bad behavior and simply wallpapers over the problem; their argument is it's necessary to 'reduce volatility in the banking sector' and, over time, we'll break even or make money on those assets. But both the overall funding being used and the wide discretion being employed were both established by W's crew. P.S. See above - it was the moron you voted for twice, that's who...

Absolutely. Like a pretty thong on the suppurating, syphilitic cunt that is the insurance industry, it really doesn't address or solve the problem - the only way of doing that is with basic universal coverage and a single-payer clearinghouse.

Exactly.

There's always been rockfall, it's just that no one did anything about it, but then why would rockfall be different.

Kenny, I see you seem intent on keeping on a roll here. Hey, the loose rock load just above Grassy Ledges up to the short chimney had built up to a ridiculous level and sending grapefruit size rocks down to the SE Corner's base. Could have been cleaned out or stacked earlier during the pre-open work session, but of course (surprise) it somehow just didn't happen. But what the hell, you just keep at it here, it's so damn productive and helpful.

Hanmi, would it be possible for you to post up a version of this one cropped in on the top a bit? Would like to see more detail on Bill's jumping jack flash action...

Heads-up for the weekend...

The final cleanup session of the season for accumulated loose rocks happened last night and the following were cleaned: * The last bushwacking pitch of Dastardly (if you do it consider bringing some pruning shears and thinning it out a bit) * Remainder of Grassy Ledges to the east * The area above Grassy Ledges on up to the short chimney * The blackberry and rock filled chute that crosses Grassy Ledges just before you go around the black rock to the top SE Corner rap - this chute had never been cleaned out and was precariously holding a really heavy rock load; it got cleaned out for about 35 feet below Grassy Ledges down to the point where it goes vertical * SE Corner Raps - all the rap station ledges down the raps got cleaned and the anchor slings inspected (they're fine) Bottom line is a LOT of rock and dirt got moved last night and some of it is going to be unsettled for a bit with the possibility of small rocks coming down on the start of the SE Corner. If you are going to hang out down there I'd strongly advise wearing a helmet until things calm down - ditto for climbing p1 of the Corner, wear a helmet and move through it at a reasonable pace. Also, Jill's upper pitches may be a bit dirty Fri/Sat, the actual cracks were cleaned out, but dirt may be on various surfaces of the climb. Oh, and the short thin finger crack to the left of the second of the SE Corner rap station definitely will need to be cleaned off before anyone attempts to climb it.

I'd be happy to take you around for a day. I'll pm you and we can sort out when.

Steve, yeah, there are a couple over there. Meant to get over there in this year's pre-open, but we got too busy. Still intend to make it out there one night coming up and hit that stretch and the area between Grassy Ledges and the 'Chimney'.

Hanmi, those are great shots of the upper pitches of Lost Warriors as well (the tree that came down used to be the last belay for it) which Bill and I did the FA of (with the help of a few other folks on the first pitch, and Karsten on the FFA). [ The green dot is an anchor that, with two 60's, will get you straight down to the 'Boardwalk' anchor. ]

Quite literally, but the honor was entirely mine for having such a great front row seat for the big show... Fabulous shooting Hanmi. P.S. Wasn't me on Dods. Wish I was, though it's a burly roped solo if that's what they were doing - not sure I'm ready for that just yet this year.

Couldn't go which was a drag...