JosephH

Well, given that is the first post where you've said anything relevant to the discussion in so many words, it's a relief to know after all those other posts that you do indeed have a point. As to your contention the fixed pro count is somehow not worthy of discussion I would have to beg to differ. It is in fact a very real issue out there and the fact that you trolled along on the FA, while great for you, doesn't in any way render it less of a valid issue beyond the fact you don't care for anyone questioning this FA. It's simply more circling of wagons and pissing after the fact as opposed to reasonable discussion of the issues raised by the FA.

Not at all when someone is pissing on a conversation for no other purpose than that - or do you actually have a point that has so far eluded the pixels?

The difference is one of us cares about Beacon, the other is simply bored.

Yeah, but I didn't say you are no longer adding any value, I said none of your posts in this thread added any value. And, dude, as if pissing in a Beacon thread is an intellectual challenge. Pretty sad you're that bored.

Did that NH once in a blinding storm with snow so deep and soft it took me awhile to even realize it was happening. It was like driving in and rolling over in a ditch of jello. Hope it wasn't bent too badly. Nice looking lines done in a great style from the look of it.

Regardless of what lines are 'dry' out there the snotty mud on top will all be as nasty and as dangerous as it gets - be incredibly careful on top this time of year. You almost can't go overboard protecting yourself while maneuvering anywhere remotely near an edge out there or within sliding distance of an edge.

Look, I didn't make my original comments for any other purpose than to have discussion about the appropriateness of putting up an aid line line like this at Beacon (and in 2010). I specifically wasn't and haven't been commenting on the difficulty of the line which is a secondary concern for me if that. And no aspect of what concerns me requires that I climb the route. I know Beacon, that face, and what aiding is like out there well enough to know what it's about for my purposes. And when I say 'aid renaissance' I'm pretty sure folks understand what I'm talking about - more aiding has gone on at Beacon in the past three or four years than has been seen out there in a couple of decades. I thought it was about gearing up for the Valley, not about putting up routes like this locally. And that raises a fairly legitimate free vs. aid discussion and about the nature of FAs out there. Then there is the issue of BRSP and WSP involvement or lack thereof in terms of a missed opportunity for a discussion around a route with this scale of fixed pro going up - but that's largely on the BRSP and not Ivan, as Ivan repeatedly tried to do the right thing there, but the park staff has just been too swamped with projects and changing of the guard to deal with it all last year. My sole concern and commenting is around the scale of fixed pro use, the 'naturalness' of any line requiring that much fixed pro, and how appropriate such aid lines are out there. It also brings into play previous discussions around issues of attempting to climb through some of the upper NW face bands (further to the west). At no point in any of this have I been angry, 'shrill', or really emotionally vested in it at all and am still not. I also find the clanish nature on exhibit by some folks where a criticism of a route is somehow an attack on the person and requires a clan response and a rallying the troops to the defense with arguments, accusations, and slander that is neither relevant nor useful. My sole intent has been an attempt to have as calm a discussion as possible around the line, not the people involved. Given it went up without any or much discussion around the scope of the fixed pro involved, if we can't discuss it here openly after the fact and with at least a measure of civility then, yeah, it's just another 'Beacon thread' and, oh well, another day in the Gorge - c'est la vie. [ Oh, and my original comment was based solely on the accuracy of the topo provided, if it isn't correct then it should probably be revised to accurately reflect the fixed pro count on the rock. (oh, and the big jpg's thing is kind of weak and doesn't change the conversation at all from my perspective.) ]

Really? With that fixed pro count? In what way is it 'great' or 'classic' as a 2010 aid line? Entertaining, 'fun', something to do in the winter, and retro-aid-because-we-missed-that-era - sure, I'll grant you all of that. But "great" from the perspective of advancing aid or free climbing today or at the cost of the precedent set at Beacon in today's drill-happy world? Nah, you're not going to convince me of that.

That would appear to be pretty conclusive unless I'm missing something. And he had my drill for a spell so it could have been with it I suppose - plenty of drills out there.

Huh? I think we have at the very least established that.

Definitely leave them fixed if it means someone is going to try and put another one in the same spot in later.

It isn't a matter of me doing it any more than needing to do ignorant bliss. It's a matter of perception and appropriateness. It's like saying I'd need to climb the proposed bolt ladder up DZs fabulous Oracle left corner wall over the roof that's being worked free. I do? When I can stand back and look at it from the ground and know exactly what it's all about? Exactly what about that proposed bolt ladder would I need to do in order to understand it? The only reason I say Grossman should do WoS is because he keeps misrepresenting what was involved when one look up tells you otherwise and I am not doing that in this case (or ignorant bliss). I've been on that route and studied that wall at Beacon and know just what's involved - the question is whether the 'line' is worth the fixed pro count for what it advances. You guys say it is, I question that for the bolting precedent it sets. Look, if you posted that bolt and pin count today on Supertopo for a new aid route up El Cap or Cerro Torre the Valley would erupt in howls - but I'm not supposed to question a route at Beacon because it's somehow not playing nice with the group. This is where 'the group' then starts feeling a bit too insular, self-absorbed, and cultish/clanish for my tastes. If you did this line with McGown thirty years ago it would be one thing, but today? Can't quite get my arms around that other than simply it being a matter of the 'fun' factor.

Hmmm, whining and bitching? So questioning the appropriateness of a drill-up aid line in 2010 at a place like Beacon is whining and bitching? Man, if that's the case I'd say you've circled the wagons on your little social circle a tad too tight. Wow. I'm still stunned that this is what the aid renessaince was all about and culminated in. And "classic" and "directissima"? Really? In the same way as the Compressor is suppose. And we're supposed to compare this to the Dawn Wall? Not in 2010 with free lines going up on El Cap and everyone there striving to do existing aid lines as clean as possible. That argument is completely bankrupt. And this happened at the same time Opdycke chopped two bolts on Bryan's free line? That's a mind boggling contrast in standards. Sorry, but I'm never buying the idea that your social contract makes everything and anything alright. Unless you guys are turning "keeping it real" into a bumper sticker and secret code for we did it so it's alright and can't be wrong or questioned. But you're right, had you said what do you think about doing a high count drill and pin up job up the north side for the sake of a 'line' to the railing, I'd have never been down for that. Sorry, its way too retro in a way that advances neither free nor aid climbing in 2010 but rather something done for the sake of the variety of 'fun' you guys have gravitated to. Now I guess I get the DZ bolt ladder talk better, but not the point.

Wait - guess I just haven't been paying that close of attention all this time as I just pulled the topo in your original post down onto my machine, blew it up, and looked at it closely for the first time. It seems to indicate you guys put up a five pitch line with 56 (14p / 42b) fixed placements on it? Is that correct? How many of that count are new? I mean jeebus, hate being a downer here, but that's the aid renaissance? Does Opdycke have any idea a fixed pro count like that went down (or up, I suppose)? And he's ok with it if he does know? To be honest, I almost don't know how to respond to that count - yeah, it's below the Compressor's per pitch count I suppose, but at Beacon? Over five pitches? Doesn't that seem a tad excessive, or like maybe a 'line' really wasn't there to do?

Really. In one pitch? This I'll have to see.

Stainless bolts pretty can disintegrate at a remarkable rate while looking good on the outside. Anything that isn't Ti is pretty dubious given there's tons of them from the first wave of climbing a decade ago. If you know what islands you're going to be on I'd get ahold of the locals or psuedo-locals who do the bolting and find out what the current story is as it probably is on a route-by-route basis.

Bowlines are always relatively easy to untie - but the double threading makes particularly easy no matter how much diving onto it you do.

The whole bicep thing just cranked up on supertopo as well: http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1287552/Distal-Biceps-Tendon-Rupture-any-experience-info-advice

That's not the case in the DB w/ CF that I posted above (or really any bowline variant). There is a 'yosemite' finish for both bowline and figure 8 tie-ins but I find it disagreeable in case of bowline tie-ins due to it turning them into a visual mishmash.

Hmmm, I know it's olde school and grossly un-PC of me, but I don't really want you to check my knot, thanks.

They'd be easily removed by Ivan I'm guessing if that were a consensus. Is there one on this line? How many protection bolts/ pins were added?

Not really much of a 'debate' unless you can move calendar weeks around. In general I don't think there's much of Beacon that hasn't been climbed before by the old guard.

Double bowline with a Czech finish.

Why? I got no fish in that kettle - tried to rap it once, but the PO was way, way too thick.

Goddamn it, now that's just flat out embarrassing and senile! The reason I didn't follow you guys up p2 is because when I was getting ready to do it I realized I'd left those sitting over there at the top of p1 so I went back for them. Once I got back over there I decided the fact I'd done that, along with leaving the car with the wrong glasses on meant I should probably rap off and bag it for the day. I suppose if you're now telling me I left them sitting there yet a second time then I made the right call. Funny, despite it being drenched, I felt completely solid on all the moves even if each had to be very considered and deliberate; but I felt fairly discombobulated the whole day whenever I wasn't physically climbing. Not really the ideal state to be roped-soloing in. Odd what goes and what stays when you haven't been climbing for months. Thanks for grabbing those for me...