JosephH

Yeah...but if he did not ignore Jim then he would be ignoring other developers wishes.... you win some and you loose some. Absolutely. But with Tim in this regard, you never win any.

Look, I have no problem with Kevin or Steve or anyone else not liking me. Don't like me, don't climb with me - really, I'm more than ok with that. But it would be helpful if Kevin and Steve could stay on topic and, when they are flipping me shit, if they could strive for a bit more creative and interesting a read. I couldn't disagree more. It's back to I thought it was about "keeping it real" to quote Opdycke, but folks are certainly free to do what they want with their own routes. Why was it all up to Jim to include or not? Because in fact it wasn't. I never said it was 'all up to Jim' or not - I simply stated they were against including it until it was obvious Tim was again going ignore those wishes.

That's the spirit - Beacon sucks!!! Definitely head to Trout, Smith, or Index instead. Fawking birds and trains, the place is a sty.

Did anyone ever end up learning more about this accident?

New gear? You gotta ask Bill...

No surprise you were alone out there. Pretty much the norm. Bummer about your heel, the Atonement sequences both up the headwall on the thin crack and the final arete/slot are pretty technical, but as you said the pro is solid. And yeah, a days worth - but if you can lead all the routes from 'Dark Horse' to 'Freak Freely' in a day before Beacon opens you're in pretty fucking burly shape.

Steve, it kind of sad really, but you don't really have much of a flair when it comes to this online thing. To be honest, a somewhat wittier and cutting repartee would actually be welcome change from this sort of droll. Suck it up man, maybe it's in there somewhere...

At least in chrome there's no onclick event to get to a larger image size...

Well, it's ok with me that you, Opdycke and others all flip-flopped on him including it once it was clear there was no stopping him - definitely your prerogative, just not mine. But I don't recall you or Opdycke being INclusive back when you objected to it being included. I simply disagree with you on both points and find it kind of funny you think there's no obligation to warn people of objective hazards or potential parking problems, but there is some obligation to tell them about the place versus just letting them find there way down when they're ready. Seems a bit odd to be one way on the one and the opposite on the other. I'd say there is no obligation to tell anyone about the objective dangers if you just don't tell them about the place at all. And maybe someone could clue Steve into the fact that until basically a few months ago Opdycke was still vociferously against Olson having included Beacon in the guide back when it first came out (and in subsequent editions). Times, clearly, they are a'changing...

Was there something about it the first time you just didn't get...?

again JosephH demonstrates his mastery of hyperbole: 2 other parties on a sunday hardly amounts to the crag being overrun. Except that I didn't say anything about the amount of traffic whatsoever. I said the first parties I've seen in 30+ trips out there this year were both down there because of his book. Beyond that I didn't say anything about the place being 'overrun', crowded or anything else. What it is a clear sign of is the 'guide' has started driving traffic of people with little leading or outside climbing experience down to the place. Bad enough he included it at all, but to do so without explicitly warning about the dangers of navigating the cliff top is irresponsible. Ditto if he didn't explicitly mention to not park on the north side of Rt. 14. Overall it was just a dick thing to do including it but then, just like with Beacon in the past, there was no stopping him. Hopefully he didn't 'star' any routes this time...

Agreed. Don't want that. Jim has always stepped up to help out folks. Of course, that chick who rolled off Lacakamas Lake the other day and had to roped out, all the signs in the world didn't help her. God knows you've stacked more bodies than most. I haven't read it, but I'd be amazed if it did. A general 'more objective hazards' statement is pretty worthless. It's no different than Rocky Butte in that there is a very specific objective danger and, if you're going to drive inexperienced people with little outside climbing experience to it, you could have the courtesy to explain that fact. Of course that's understandably pretty hard to do if all you've done there is traipse through the place for a couple of hours and crib others' notes for your 'guide'.

I'd be happy to put them back for you. Can I move the one on TV to the left two feet while I'm at it, or better yet how about you come out one day and we can look at both of them.

See all the love! Something even Kevin and I see eye to eye on...

And really, what have the hell have the Greeks contributed in the last thousand years anyway? They clearly haven't been pulling their own weight lately...

That's total self-centered and selfish - nothing sucks more than having to stack dead bodies off to the side in order to get on a route.

Absolutely nothing to get in uproar about or even bother putting in a guidebook at all as it will only disappoint people - sort of like your attempts at wit and sarcasm.

Having driven by 20-40 cars at a crack to have the place to ourselves every single time I'd say judgment has already been rendered - can't quite tell whether that judgment is on the DZ climbs or the climbers doing the drive, but either way it works for me. People do all sorts of stupid, dangerous things and climbers are certainly no exception. True, several have the potential to maim or kill and shouldn't be taken lightly. Same as it ever was, overgrown at each end.

Been out there 30+ times this year and we've had the place entirely to ourselves until Sunday when two parties came down, both with Olson's book in hand. We setup top ropes for the one more inexperienced party who couldn't lead and all had a great time. That's because there was never really more than 20 good routes out there. But everyone had a grand time partying and hanging out doing the rest and between people who come down and nature, a judgment will be rendered pretty quickly on the other 60. Cool how you start out missing the point, pick up on a secondary concern and run with it, and yet cluelessly post on while struggling to grasp the gist of the conversation, i.e. par for the course. As the flea circus turns...

Nobody dropped anything on anybody. It's a pretty straightforward proposition - wandering around on top of the cliff at DZ/FS looking for or attempting to set up a TR is an incredibly dangerous proposition and should be avoided at all cost. Jesus, as far as online firepower goes it's like tweedle dim and tweedle dum when you two post up - a polycephaly of dunces. What's elitist is the incessant need to publish routes and crags in [unnecessary] guidebooks where ahead of time you know it's going to drive inexperienced climbers to crags and then not be clear about the objective hazards involved. It's both elitist and irresponsible.

Olson's guide is now driving traffic of people with little outside climbing experience to the crag. This thread has ZERO to do with being elitist, 'climbing at your own risk', or people toproping per se. Setup all the TRs you want - by having someone lead a route to the anchor to set it up - which is specifically what this thread is about. Do not attempt to setup a TR by approaching the cliff edge from the road as it's simply too dangerous both for the extreme risk of coming off the edge and, as Bill states, knocking the many loose rocks down onto people below. Nothing 'elitist' about it.

Except that my post on ST was entirely on topic and wasn't interjected into a safety-related thread.

PLEASE DO NOT TRY TO APPROACH THE TOP OF ROUTES FROM THE ROAD / UPPER TRAIL - YES, THERE ARE SOME SLINGS ON TREES VISIBLE FROM THE TRAIL UP BY THE ROAD, BUT BY AND LARGE THEY ARE REMNANTS OF THE ORIGINAL DEVELOPMENT AND NOT TOP ROPES. IN GENERAL THERE ARE NO CLIFFTOP-ACCESSIBLE TOP ROPES AT DZ/FS AND THE ENTIRE AREA AT THE TOP OF THE CLIFF IS EXCEEDINGLY DANGEROUS TO APPROACH FROM ABOVE IF YOU AREN'T A VERY EXPERIENCED CLIMBER AND EVEN THEN YOU SHOULD THINK TWICE ABOUT IT AND WHY YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO DO IT. AGAIN, PLEASE TAKE THE TRAIL DOWN AND BE AWARE THIS ISN'T AN AREA WHERE YOU CAN SET UP TOP ROPES FROM ABOVE AND THERE ARE ONLY A COUPLE OF COMPLETELY BOLTED ROUTES. IF YOU ARE RELATIVELY NEW TO CLIMBING, TO CLIMBING OUTDOORS, OR TO LEADING YOU SHOULD ARRANGE TO COME WITH AN EXPERIENCED CLIMBER WHO CAN LEAD ROUTES AND ESTABLISH TOP ROPES IF SO DESIRED OR CONSIDER AN ALTERNATIVE VENUE. [ Bill, if you guys have a different opinion or put up something more appropriate at the east or west ends, please post up that info, thanks ]

Latinos who vote historically tended to vote conservatively - I suspect that will be changing in 2012 and many Latinos who never bothered to vote will be voting in droves. It's really a pretty stupid indignation issue for republicans to push, but they're pretty much out of gas on the gay thing so clutching onto anything that reminds voters the president isn't white probably seems like a good idea to them. Problem is it doesn't really get them much in the way of new voters or independents.

Only one way to know...