JosephH

Hopefully we can presume those 'other bolts' were put there for the purpose of climbing rocks as opposed to climbing bolts. But, I'll agree that, once bolts are flying at any density, it gets hard to discrimminate between one line of bolts and another on any but a fairly tenuous ethical basis.

I wouldn't go that far. They clearly hold some odd notions about what constitutes climbing, but I think the issue is not so much whether they 'are climbers' or even the fact that the ladder is in close proximity to existing aid or free lines - for me the issue is 'what' they were doing. It's the fact it didn't really require a rock at all to do it; a slab of concrete or a telephone pole would have worked equally well for their purposes.

It's easier to get, or make, a long eyebolt with the same thread as the 5pc, hook the sleeve out, and then funk the wedge out with the eyebolt. That's if you want to salvage the bolts - always a good idea with new ones and you have the time and tools - otherwise just unscrew them and call it good given these holes will be patched as opposed to bolt replacement. Moof, with studs I'd have to say don't 'whack them deep' (the hole usually isn't deep enough) or 'whack them back and forth' (it breaks up the surrounding rock too badly) - just over-tighten the nut on them until they break off, then tap them back in the hole. Edit: Oh, and you'll need a deep/long socket to over-tighten with a socket wrench. If they are studs, then I've got the sockets and Bill's breaker bar to contribute to the effort if needed.

Was working at Digital Equipment Corp. in Nashua, NH and living up in Francestown about 40 minutes SW of Mcauliffe's home in Concord. It was pretty much a bummer for an extended period across all of Southern NH in general as I recall. I do remember later wandering out to Joe English Hill, soloing up to a favorite perch, and just staring up at the sky along with the giant Air Force satellite dish nearby which was doing the same.

Some 'police tape' on a bolt higher than the first one with a "to be chopped by the community" notice and a link to this thread marked on it with a Sharpie wouldn't be a bad idea. That or some form of marker that states the intention and has a link to here anyway.

After several years I've [finally] gotten pretty good at patches that match all the micro-contours and local texture in the rock and now have access to blendable colored epoxy sticks. I would be happy to assist with the patching. The only caveat being that part of the operation would have to wait until it is a bit warmer for the patches to really take well. Depending on the type of bolt, unscrewing them (5-pc), pulling them with tuning forks (studs), or breaking them by over-tightening and tapping them back in the hole (either) wouldn't need to wait.

John chopped it, I think three years ago...

I believe the rabbit hole currently surfaces in the Tel Hawwa neighborhood in Gaza City after a recent departure from Souj Bulak, a Kurdish neighborhood outside of Tabriz, Iran. Damn rabbits...

That's o.k., I only know because I was a photog in Vietnam and recalled that Life Magazine spread from my high school days and realized at the time how perfectly it had portrayed our enduring predicament.

Just for accuracy's sake, the quote was: 'it became necessary to destroy the town to save it...' and was attributed to an unnamed Air Force Major by AP stringer Peter Arnett on 2/7/68 in regard to the destruction of Ben Tre which is the capital of Ben Tre Provence in the heart of the Mekong Delta. If I recall correctly the quote was made in the context of the fact B-52 strikes pretty much returned everything back to level ground. Life Magazine used it across a two-page aerial view of Ben Tre after the fact. Now the basic concept is codified in the euphemism "Ben Tre logic"...

I have say that anyone even remotely considering this a route is being overly kind. That this ladder qualifies as a route at all, let alone one worthy of preservation, represents a pretty basic philosophical divide, let alone an ethical one. These guys clearly had volition, gear, a rope, and went up. Beyond that I'm still having a hard time figuring out where - on the basis of a [natural] line, vision, creativity, skill, or prowess - the leap to a "route" would come into play.

Most industrial nations are ahead of us because families in those nations recognize the [free market] value of education. Parents in those cultures are just far more actively engaged in insuring their children leverage educational opportunities than are comparable parents in the U.S. Further, much more is demanded from their children both at school and home with regard to academics. Lester Thurow was in PDX about 15 years ago and, with regard to the lack of comparable and rigorous national academic standards in the U.S., noted "the U.S. has over 5,000 local school boards all cranking out a lousy product...". He makes a worthy point, but the other shoe as the biggest obstacle to better academic achievement in the U.S. is the behavior of families.

Maybe we're setting our sights too low. How about k-8 is to teach you to learn, high school to think, and university to allow you to contribute something beyond manual, rote, or craft labor.

Unless there's miraculously more to the story then Bryan is relating, one can only guess had "cooler heads" prevailed at any point prior to his arrival on the scene then no bolts would have ever been sunk at all. I'd be curious to know just what anyone here finds redeeming about rapping for an anchor and then drilling back up to it that even makes it a question? How does this instance even make the leap from a ladder to an aid route, let alone something worthy of equivocating or agonizing over?

I haven't heard anyone talk shit at them - just discuss the merits of what they did. I don't think anyone should talk shit at them, but rather try to figure out what they were thinking, explain why it wasn't the best idea, and ask them to pull it. If they don't, and any of you Broughton folks still care, then go do it for them...

You were certainly up in arms a while back about someone bolting what you considered a "squeeze job" on a face out at Ozone - what was the problem and why would you object to more? Or on what basis would you object to these guys or someone else doing a spaid line on a face between a couple of yours given your lines clearly are underbolted for such purposes.

Not at all - rap and install anchor, go to base, drill / aid back up to anchor - period. Are you thinking there were mysterious attributes of the rock on that section of Broughtons or some special circumstances these gentlemen found themselves in which can and should imbue this affair with legitimacy? [ I'm basically just trying to figure out what would be substantially different between doing it at the Bat Wall and doing it on one of the Fremont Bridge pillars besides a shorter walk... ]

So are you saying you'd have no problem with more squeeze jobs out at Ozone...?

Kevin, I actually trust Bryan with my life when I climb with him, I'll take his word that he's accurately representing what he saw. Rap-bolting an anchor and then spaiding up to it is what he's recounted here. I don't need to go see it. Are you implying it's somehow a different then it would be on a tree, telephone pole, the bouldering wall below the road at the Butte, or a concrete bridge support just because it happened on a rock? I'm missing exactly what it is that's essential for me to see to understand what went on, or to decide it's an inappropriate application of bolting - or that it was wholly unnecessary in order to 'practice aid climbing' close to PDX.

Well, that's one vote for spaiding...

Tyler, nice set of tuning forks you got there, especially like the bugs - slick...!

So Ivan, what does that mean - "work themselves out" ? If by 'themselves' you mean the bolts, then I hope not - the idea is for them to hold tight in the rock and stay put. If you mean 'people', then it would seem there are only two paths a) everyone remains unrighteous, apathetic, too-tired-of-it-all, or too-busy-to-be-bothered and the bolts stay; or b) people get (lordy) 'righteous', take offense, remove the bolts, and patch the rock. I'm not really seeing an option 'c' here. But really (getting a bit 'righteous' and what all), is this what it's coming down too - that there are no 'bad' bolts? That once bolts go in they are protected by an entirely opposite righteousness - an indignation and exclamation of the "inhumanity of it all" at the mere suggestion maybe the bolts are inappropriate and should come out. I'm just guessing here, but is the prevailing idea these days that there's really no meaningful difference at all between rock and concrete, that "...this rock's for you...!", or is it just a matter of bolt-war weariness? And, following up on Nate's comment, the Butte, Broughton, Ozone, and Beacon all collectively have plenty of lines at all levels of difficulty to practice aid climbing on. Sounds like these guys were more interested in practicing bolting, or are really just into spaiding. Seems to me like a road cut, concrete wall, telephone pole, or even the bouldering wall below the road at the Butte would be more appropriate places for this sort of thing. At least that's my "righteous" view on it. And hell, who knows, I have no personal affinity for Broughton's and maybe, as some seem to be suggesting, none of the folks who do give a damn anymore so it's not a problem at all? P.S. It sure would be interesting to know what exactly their "research" consisted of - I'm guessing it didn't include walking into the the PRG and asking Gary, or posting here on cc for what folks thought of the idea.

Good going, you guys are all definitely hardmen for doing all that aid in the cold. Just so you know, I do have a stash of the Heavy Rap Hangers from Metolius, 13mm SS Hangers from Fixe, and SS bolts from Bill for Beacon. No need to buy anchors if you don't already have them - just give me a shout and I'll be happy to get some to you.

Ah, very good to hear that guys - way to go about it. The powers that be are pretty damn sensitive about this topic more than all the others combined. Really glad to hear you had a posse out for the drop! In general, we should work with the BRSP on drops that can potentially reach the tracks and they're usually pretty accomodating on coming down to help out with the lookout / verification duties. If anything were to ever damage the track and they didn't get a heads up on a deliberate drop that would likely be the end of days...

I think I know where you mean; there was a dubious looking bunch of rock up there from what I recall from one rap or another. My only real concern, for myself or anyone else trundling anything significant, is the railroad tracks. That far west you're relatively clean, but you should go down and check the tracks if there's ever any question at all about just where something went, bounced, or landed. Officially, we're technically not supposed to trundle anything big without talking to the BRSP first, but given it's this time of year and you folks have worked the pre-open cleanups I don't have too much concern. Please do keep it in mind in the future, though, particularly for anything on lines East of that one. Also, I do have a large, heavy tree planting dibble which will move large rocks if you know something that really is dangerous, but needs a nudge during this upcoming pre-open session.