wfinley

A typical rebuttal to global warming debate is the geological time scale argument. i.e. - So the earth warms and cools - why should I care? It's basically an easy way of justifying your current lifestlye - be it driving an SUV two block to the super market or catching a heli-ride instead of hiking in. If you truly can sit on your ass and say "why should I care" then the reality is that nothing can be said to change your point of view. This same mindset applies to your viewpoint of environmentalist. Why should you care if no one confronts the oil industry and tries to block drilling in the Arctic? Why should you care if the senate puts off fuel efficiency for another 10 years or if China is allowed to continue it's full scale assault on air quality without some sort of global coalition to reduce emissions? As a climber you should care because in the past 10 years we've seen climbs like the diamond couloir and the black ice couloir dry up.. You should care because being able to do a 20 day climbing trip in the Brooks range without getting permits from Exxon or dealing with air quality issues from oil refineries is a pretty awesome experience. Because if the ocean levels rise you won't be able to clip bolts in Thailand. If you can't care beyond your own tiny bubble then think how it will effect your bubble.

Planecrazy: You're talking about two different things. Biodiesal is a fuel generated from waste cooking oils etc. It is not a viable alternative because only a limited amount is available for the public. Once production is pushed to the point where is it viable for many users then it ceases to be energy efficient. If you're referring to alternative fuel like Ethanol again you run into problems. There are conflicting reports about how much fuel is actually being produced when outside factors are included. For example - according to Dept. of Agriculture reports the yield alone is 1.3x - but once other factors such as fuel costs to run machinery, fertilizer, irrigation and equipment maintenance there is a loss - some contend as much as a 65% loss. Furthermore corn is not the most efficient crop - it lags far behind sugar cane and sugar beets; however the lobbyist for the North Dakota sugar beet industry have far less money than Iowa farm lobbyist.

This guy asks a compelling question and the CC.com galley responds with the usual spray. Why don't you guys actually defend the practices or offer a decent rebuttal? The number of motorized users who access to wild areas grows ever year - in Alaska 10 years ago people couldn't snowmachine up to our ski huts - with the new powerful machines they blast in every weekend to party. It used to be you only saw heli skiers every now and then - now on a clear day the valley south of our (human power only) ski peaks sees a steady stream of heli-skiers from March - May. Instead of shouting him down with obscenities try and think for once.

Sorry... sometimes this site get my spray fingers typing. Saying that dialog never changes anything is quite pessimistic. If dialog and discussion does no more than strengthen people's resolve to disagree than why bother ever talking to anyone?

Are you referring your witty one-liner posts in this thread as an example of discussion? If so then I can see why you would think that discussion never goes anywhere.

It is possible to hold a discussion without "merciless cross examination" - it's called a discussion and I would argue that much of the polarity we find in politics arises out of peoples refusal to openly discuss important issues in a civil manner.

Well said! I grew up in a family where discussion over a variety of topics was encouraged - and nourished - regardless of what the opposing views were. Sunday dinner growing up meant dinner, dessert and then evolution, politics and religion. Some of the best trips I've been on include sitting in a tent discussing events; nothing makes you forget about a raging storm like arguing about God and Bush!

I live in a very conservative state yet almost everyone whom I climb and ski with is fairly liberal (and yes - I don't mind labels). I think it's fairly safe to assume that the majority of people who enjoy back country skiing, climbing or backpacking lean somewhat left - whereas the majority of people who ride supermachines, hunt and go 4-wheeling are somewhat right leaning. Of course I have no statistics to back this up - it's just personal observation. The right has managed to make environmental policy a divisive political issue where advocating environmental awareness equates one with democrats and liberals. With this comes the mindset that backcountry skiing is a liberal hippie activity and snowmachining is a redneck right-wing activity. Note that I'm speaking in general terms here - every one of us knows a conservative climber or skier - just as every one of us knows a liberal hunter and snowmachiner. That said... I think things are changing. In Alaska, for example, there is a strong new organization opposed to mining who's membership is made up primarily of hunters and fishermen (the Renewable Resources Coalition - http://www.renewableresourcescoalition.org/). As it becomes apparent that environmental awareness is not a liberal / conservative issue then we'll see more crossover.

I don't think it's a Cascades-only problem - but rather an issue wherever you have to balance weather and alpine climbnig. I think it's a hard balancing act; a few years ago I had more passion then sense. I climbed a number of fun peaks that season but also experienced a few miserable forced bivouacs and scared myself silly a couple times as well. Lately I have had more sense then passion and have turned around on a number of climbs - but I have yet to bivy or experience a good epic in the past couple of years. If you're a weekend warrior getting burned because of weather becomes the norm because you're going regardless of the forecast. Quit your job and climb when the weather is good and the issue seems to arise less often.

Thanks for the photos! The Durrance route on Symmetry was the first route I ever climbed in the West. Prior to that I was an east coast only boy. We climbed the Durrance route on Symmetry and on the drive back to school (Virginia) stopped and climbed the Durrance route on Devil's Tower. Great memories - and classic routes!

that's a good one! pXyEcMG5bDs

Wasn't there one about coveting thy belay partner's wife?

Looks promising... but lose the black background. Black is cool and hip - but users hate it.

I got this really bad a few years ago from being too cheap to buy new running shoes. The only ting I have to add: for short term pain relief take a nalgene bottle and freeze it. During the day when you're sitting at your desk take off your shoes and socks and roll your feet back and forth on the frozen nalgene bottle. It seemed to really help with pain relief and swelling.

A few years ago I was on the Kahiltna when a group of Russians showed up hoping to put the first paraplegic on the summit of Denali. Their plan was to fix rope up the entire West Buttress while the guy essentially jumared his way up using a custom sled. I asked the head ranger, Roger Robinson, what he thought their chances were and he said: "They're Russians. They live to suffer. If anyone can do it - they can."

So ken4ord when people disagree with your opinion they are "stupid" and unworthy to climb? What makes you the authority on the definition of climbing? My Thailand analogy still stands for on reason: the key difference between pursuits like climbing and collecting bird eggs or fishing in the Bering sea is that one servers a very specific purpose that has a price determined by an economic market on it. Sure climbing warms your soul - that's great. It warms mine too when it's not snowing. But no matter how you look at it, it is a pursuit that serves no purpose other than personal gain. We choose to climb and most of us who choose to climb do so because we have the economic means to do so. To many of us climbing seems more valuable than any job and we would like to think we prize it above our work commitments. However, the fact remains - climbing is an activity that is primarily an activity pursued by middle to upper class white guys who have a solid financial base (be it their own money or mammas). Granted we're basing all our conclusions on a short video clip -- however the video speaks for itself in that it shows what the kids are doing. Most of us would be quick to condemn pursuits where children and youth are subjected to dangerous pursuits that often result in death - but for some reason this is considered fine because it's climbing and tradition. Sure there might be a huge tradition when it comes to free soling and risk - that said there is also a huge "tradition" of alcoholism and suicide in Russia. Russian's have a long history of mental angst and depression, to me this video highlighted another out that really didn't seem much different then suicide or alcoholism. PS... here are more pix / videos. This one is pretty telling in that it actually has a series of photos of a guy falling to his death. http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1622731;guest=14932675

PS... check out these pix: http://www.stolby.ru/eng/History.asp

Your Thailand analogy doesn't fit because there is a purpose associated with the climbing; it's a trade that has deep roots and a strong economic market. Most of those guys would die to have a desk job making the money you and I make. Climbing is different in that for the majority of people there is no inherent purpose aside from the act of climbing. Likewise the key difference between Rearden and the kids in this movie is that Rearden was an individual who made a personal decision to free solo. True ego plays a part in climbing - but I think that you can see a distinct difference between accomplished free soloers and the kids in this movie. I am not upset when i see an accomplished climber free solo a route. What struck me was the casual indifference this group seemed to have in relation to deaths due to this pursuit.

It's more like eating a Deep Friend Twinkie.

That's ridiculous. Free soloing with 100 of your closest friends is no different that playing Russian roulette at a keg party. You glorify the activity because it's 'CLIMBING' whereas you are quick to associate obesity with stupidity. Russian youth suffer the second highest (after Lithuania) suicide rate on the planet; perhaps the willingness to die while free soling is better than a gun to the head but I don't see much difference. Either way you're dead.

Sorry; but the pan of the wall of plaques commemorating the dead kind of negates this argument. Would you say the same thing about about kids driving 4-wheelers while swilling beers? Plenty of American youth die doing stupid things and we are quick to pass judgment (I imagine you are too) -- why should we not criticize climbing when it is so obvious that peer pressure plays a huge role in this decision? It's very obvious from the video that in this case many of the accidents are not due to individual choice. As romantic as it sounds to grow up in a community where free soloing is looked upon as an 'ethic' in the end dying while free soloing a route you've been pressured onto is not much different than dying while drunk driving after hanging out at a party with your buds.

biannual tradition...didn't you read the welcome page to cc.com?duh duh dumbass... Bolting arguments are as traditional sheep jokes and RuMR is always there. I recall RuMR igniting a bolt argument back in 1992; It was my first glimpse of the dark and dangerous world that sport climbers want to bring to our crags. Glad to see somethings never change.

Not I - but two of my good friends are PAs. One does the 9-5 (well 8am - midnight) 3 days / week. He works hard and tells us great stories about removing glass out of legs and taking Xrays of severe breaks. His stories make me queasy. My other friend travels alot; last year he worked in Antarctica and South Africa. Right now is he doing the Bush Alaska circuit. He loves his job - and likewise works hard and finds it very rewarding. They both make my job seem trivial and boring.

I bought one of those REI compass / thermometer keychains. It saved my life last week... I was about to freeze due to wind chill but then I looked at the handy chart on the back and realized it wasn't that cold. After that i felt much better.

To keep snow from balling up in the paws rub vaseline between the pads. Works like a charm! As for huskies -- keep in mind that in interior alaska - which has more huskies than people - summer temps are often in the 80s and the dogs do just fine. PS - I have not heard of Labordoodles having trouble with snow balling up on their fur. I've heard they're awesome ski dogs but this is all hearsay. Personally I think they're a passing yuppie fad.