SemoreJugs

my partner lost his camera somewhere between Upper Snow Lake and the first campsites at Lake Vivianne On Wed, July 27 sometime between 6 and 11PM. If you found a digital camera please msg me and I will describe it. Thanks kind soul! Feel free to look at the girly pics on there... j/k

DAMN! I was one of those idiots walking unroped between the flats and schurman THAT SAME DAY! I hiked up around 4:30 PM to about 11,500 solo to preview the route and see how many people on the flats were planning on climbing sun morning. on the way down I passed a team of 4 and a team of two... Did you pass me? taking pics, red helmet, blue clothing, by myself. I am shitting a brick in retrospect right now. Right before I crossed that crevasse I remeber yelling across to people at camp asking if it was safe to go unroped where the boot track was. What a stupid question in retrospect. Stupid stupid stupid. Thank God the mountain had mercy on my lack of respect! PLEASE TELL ME WHAT TIME YOU FELL IN! I wont be able to sleep until I find out. f'ing a. Oh and amazing, inspirational, write-up. 5 stars! Gonna post my own mini-epics from the mountain on that weekend soon!!!

I was on Emmons 2 weekends ago. GEAR TO BRING (IF YOU LIKE LIFE): helmet!!!****** you are crazy if you would ever consider climbing rainier, anytime of year, day, level of conditioning, etc, without a helmet. The exception being a select few climbers like gauthier and maybe some guides and rangers that know the mountain so well, they can guage exactly where you could get away relatively safely without one. Any route that is crowded, you are nutz to think you are immune to parties knocking down chunks of snow, ice, rocks, nalgenes, gear, or bodies on you. And then there is the possibility of slipping on ice and slamming your noggin or getting the smack-down in a crevasse fall. The fact alone that you are asking is a big red rescue flag. This would be a good time to reassess if you have the experience to takle this mountain safely. Maybe you want to push yourself to the limit. it sounds like you will if you go, thats fine. just keep it in perspective. I hope your partners are more experienced. Note: I am NOT trying to rip you a new one. Just trying to give you a wake-up call before you get yourself or someone else hurt. Poles v Axe. This really depends on snow conditions and your level of proficiency decending and ascending. Again, it sounds like you dont really know what you are getting into. I know Anatoli Boukreev was a fan of climbing many 5000 m ( a little higher than rainier) peaks in Kazykstan with just ski poles and sneakers. But he was in a class unto himself, and besides, now he's dead. I hope you were planning on bringing crampons and know how to use them and when not to use them. SIDENOTE: IS there anyone out there that would bring crampons on a climb and not an ice axe? it seems like I first consider bringing an axe, and then later crampons, if needed. My suggestion: Set your sights a little lower or have a flexible plan. The climb just getting to camp Schurman can be pretty taxing especially if its a hot sunny day. Use the interglacier as your testing ground. We passed one party chasing its tent down the mountain, and another climber was being helicoptered out with a broken leg from glissading in crampons (the last 1000 ft of the interglacier). There is great potential to fuck up just getting to schurman. And if you make it with little incident then think about resting a full day before tackling the summit. Thats about all the beta I want to give. I hope to god you are going to be with experienced people. My best advice: Check your ego at the ranger station. HONESTLY assess your comfort, conditioning, objective dangers, your rate of ascent, if someone has constructive criticism (consider what they have to say but ultimately the choices you make, how effectively you comunicate and how honest you are with your partner, and how you listen to the mountain, and ultimately execute will determine your experience on rainier. My wish is you return with an eye-opening experience, learn about yourself, and get a new perspective on life. Thats what its all about in my opinion. (it generally takes at the very least as long to summit from schurman as it does to climb from glacier basin to schurman) GEAR THAT WILL LIKELY BE DEAD WEIGHT: anything that makes your pack heavier than 45 lbs (but try to pare down to 35-40) may be impossible to achieve at your experience level.

How to properly utilize your nearest REI: "Gear Testing". 100% return policy. "Why am I returning it? Because I no longer need it, biatch." Little known exchange tricks: Bought something on sale under your membership? Just tell them you got it as a gift from a non-member. Buy toblerone! tobler-load. Return with empty wrappers and complain there was just choclate in them. Redeem for a "massage" in the "repair shop" Yeah thats right, REI is really a front for an elaborate, international boarding house for mail-order brides, massage parlors, and free masons. REI clerk: "Are you a member of REI?" climber: "Are you a member of Al Qaida?" REI clerk: "If you become a member you will save a lot of money." climber: "If you work at a reputable gear shop, you will make a living wage."

I couldnt agree more. I always yield out of courtesy and respect to faster parties. Please pass me if you are faster! I only ask that you pass safely and in respect (its a two way street). Thats the whole point of my post. For 99.9% of all climbers, there is always gonna be someone more skilled, wiser, faster; and conversely, there will definitely be people with less experience, slower, dangerous because of their inexperince, etc. So lets share the mountains when we encounter one another. It would be great to have a wilderness experience every time you go out, but thats hard to achieve if you want to climb "classic" routes. Lets try to reserve the attitudes for the spray board. Remember, the mountain and rock has been there much longer than we have been. We are fortunate and priveledged to climb there. I dont care if you are a friggin sherpa, death applies to all--its the great equalizer. We are insignicant compared to the mountains. Just think, if Rainier had consciousness, it would erupt in laughter with all the little "tiffs" that these ants climbing on it engage in. If she wanted, maybe she would decide to brew up a fierce storm up high where the faster, "more worthy" parties were just to make a point. All the slower parties live. Faster parties die. its all relative. Granted, usually it is the newbies that blow it (its a sharp, deadly learning curve), but sometimes some of the greatest climbers have gone out in not-so glorious ways. Goran Kropp met his end on a "lowly" 5.10 trad climb at a crag one step away from an outdoor climbing gym. Alex Lowe died in an avalanche while doing a routine scouting for a bigger objective. Death is always one step away and does not discrimate based on status: sponsorships, AMGA certifications, badassness, summit lists, Search and Rescue, ski patrolls, etc. Death does however have a craving for over-inflated egos. Beware! Just some perspective and sanity...

I'm glad you are celebrating her death! Easy for me to say, hard for you to do. Keep her memory alive in your soul and keep celebrating the times that you were blessed to share. She is fortunate to die in such a way. Here's to Katie

I'm glad you have taken such an interest in me to share your comments. You must have a rich, full life lurking under bridges looking for billy goats to eat. Lets climb together!

Need a partner! Tick List: Some of the objectives are Mythril Dihedral http://patituccistock.com/stockclimbing/source/01cl-al0928.html in the Mt. Whitney area (with tons of other possibilities very close by) and Red Dihedral up the Incredible Hulk. http://www.supertopo.com/topos/reddihedral.pdf Going with a group of 4, so I need a rope partner. We have one more permit spot for you available. Options: FLy into LAX on 8/7 and hitch a ride with my friends from NC. Fly in whenever and rent a car (expensive) Road trip down! This is my favorite option but also the most time consuming. You would have to provide the car (i'd provide 70% of gas expenses to compensate for wear and tear). I've never driven down the coast and have wanted to see it for so long. My climbing style: I know the balance between fun, adventure, pushing limits, and safety. I tend to get along best with people that are jovial and open. Passive agressive types dont work for me. I expect a partner to be able to communicate effectively, and will give them nothing less in return. I would prefer that we climb a bit before commiting to such a large trip. I've been burned in the past (and lived to laugh about it after) by sight-unseen partners. Trust needs to be developed before we are on a totally committed rock route and I will not compromise on this. Resume: roguly a dozen Grade II-IV Alpine and Long Routes in: Wyoming's Wind River Range, Eldorado Canyon, Squamish, Outer Space, Enchantments, Linville Gorge, NC , Looking Glass Rock, NC I've been on Rainier twice: once on Kautz Glacier Route (up to 13,400) once on Emmons Glacier Route (summit) Rock Climbing: 7 years of trad climbing, 9 of sport and TRing. I spent 7 years climbing on the EAst Coast: New River Gorge, NC (the trad bastion of the nation), Tennesse, and the REd River Gorge. In the NW I've been climbing at, in order of decreasing frequency: Index, exit 32, LEavenworth, Tieton, Vantage, Squamish, Smith Rock I'll be taking a trip to the enchantments this July 27-31: Ticks include Prusik (west ridge and maybe south face) Dragontail, SErpentine Arete Stuart NW face of W ridge this will be good training for the Sierras trip and would be a great way to bond with a new partner

check out Rad's excellent thread related to this topic. Especially discussions on Ego and Fear. That should really get some peeps fired up! http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/s...true#Post478513

I should have been more concise. Weakness and humblesness (by which I mean egolessness) do not have to be intertwined. I agree, often they are. But they do not have an intrisic quality of togetherness. Granted, the ego, or self-seving mind, will always be present. It is nescessary for self preservation. When I said "kill the ego", I should have said master the ego. Control it rather than be controlled by it. Always be aware of it. I agree, power or energy is something that flows thru everything. A being, like Ghandi, can learn how to harness this power. Yes, a permission is required to relinquish power to another entity, often the one giving permission is not even aware that they are giving their power over to something else (ie an angry mob or peaceful protesters). Accordingly, the mob ruled by fear is less likely to be able to make conscious decisions. They are acting on more primal forces whereas peaceful protesters are working from the "higher" mind and ideals and are thus more likely to be conscious of their decisions. Again, killing was a poor metahphor. Maybe that word choice reveals something about myself? Thanks for the insight! I'm sure there are a few, but no generalization lacks exceptions. What I am talking about is an overarching pattern. But I'd love to be educated on heroic tyrants. how very true, but at least the humble leader has improved the lot of himself and mankind and can die with a smile on his face and a full heart.

always happy to let you pass. Just please be safe about it. We didnt knock rocks and ice down on you from above. So dont do it to us if you get above. Thanks

Maybe you are hard of reading? We moved out of the way for ANYONE faster. But just because you are faster does not give you the right to be disrespectful. Has it occured to you that maybe you climb too fast for the route you are on. You know there will be slow people, so why not go elsewhere? Or blaze your own boottrack up the mountain. Or start earlier so you dont have to pass anyone. Thats what I would and will do from now on when I feel like the crowds are dangerous. It sounds like you need more of a challenge anyway. But maybe you enjoy feeling superior to the "slow JONGs". How's that working out for you? Do you feel good about yourself by denegrating others? Joking about being a silly greenhorn is one thing, but saying fuck-off is quite another. Not even Alex Lowe was born with an ice ax in his hand. I guess you never get passed. Whos your sponsor? Maybe you go to Rainier to feel good about yourself by comparing yourselves to newbies because you cant keep up with people at your experience level? I think you are really weak and afraid inside. You might not even know it yet, but one day you will realize this, and that will be one hell of a reckoning. It happened to me. Good Luck to you.

arch. Okay I just reread your post and now it makes more sense. Just because you grow in power does not mean you have to get a big head about it. That is the pitfall of power. The secret is to limit and eventually kill the ego along the way.

humbleness and weakness have no connection. IT is only percieved that way. True power comes from liberation from the ego. Thats what I've learned from my experiences at least. And then look at figures from history... The Dali Lama. Most humble guy you have ever met. Somehow, China entirely oppose him. There are still buddist temples in Lhasa. Ghandi. Never raised a fist, he was puny. Yet the entire british empire could not withstand his inner might. Nelson Mandela. Spent most of his life a prison. Yet they were afraid to kill him. Finally his power, which reached out to others, freed him. Now his outward, external power is shining. It all begins from within by killing the ego. Think of all the "great" iron-fisted kings and dictators that have fallen due to their egomania. They really had no true power when people saw thru their posturing. Hussein acted like a tough-guy baddass. REally, he was afraid of everything. Thats why he had his close relatives killed. Thats why he killed thousands of kurds. Thats why he killed anyone that spoke against his regime (inside or out). He was afraid the truth would surface. We saw thru his posturing and knew that he was actually quite weak. And where did we find him when we challenged his "mighty power"? Hiding at the bottom of a hole. Hilter killed himself. Has any oppressive egomaniac dictactor gone out in a blaze of glorious honor? I cant think of one.

First off, amazing, eye-opening thread! I couldnt agree more with the OP. As I read through the thread, I started to notice the egos come out. EGO is a killer. Something I realized on Rainier this weekend. It also hinders one's mind and soul from growth. No one is exempt from it. Double E hit the nail on the head. How different are we, really, from computer geeks in a spiritual sense? Sure we drink way less mountain dew but more beer and gatorade. Ego was a huge problem in my own party as well as some of the parties on the Emmons last Sunday that were creating dangerous situations for others. Take a hard look at yourself. Do you realize that you are no more important than anyone, or thing, on this earth? Look at Seattle from Rainier when the sunlight is reflecting off the skyscrapers, how insignificant does it look? Than think about how insigificant you must look on rainier from Seattle. We are a joke to the mountain. IF it so chooses, it can swallow us whole. But by some grace, it usually allows safe passage. I come to the mountains to be humbled. And I constantly am. Sometimes, my ego gets in the way. Its a fight. Sometimes I think I am "better" than the "touron" asking about how the rope got up there. Sometimes I judge myself to be more worthy of a route than someone else. But I am realizing these are hinderances to my own growth as well as to connecting to others and helping to lift them up. Despite our insignificance, we are not alone in this universe. That is the beauty of it. Lets move forward and lift each other up, instead of cutting each other down. Carl SAgan's remarks on the famous "Pale Blue Dot" picture taken 4 BILLION miles from EArth by Voyager 1 in 1991:

Bandit. Maybe you missed this the first time so I'll quote myself... So WTF are you talking about? Read the whole thing before you try tearing me a new one and talking about shiny REI gear. And sorry, I dont play golf.

hey thats a great idea. My bad for overlooking such an obvious detail... except that is exactly what we did when given the chance. Anytime a party came up behind us, out last member did in fact try to communicate with the leader of the upcoming rope party. And we stepped aside uphill of the boot track everytime unless the boottrack was 20 feet wide which it was in some cases. Most parties did pass low side and it was just these 2 jerk-offs that ignored our requests and put us in danger. Addressing the other comment from Dru: Yeah, I was pretty shocked myself that my ropemate fell. After the fall, I demanded to know why he fell. IT turned out he took a rest on his knees and did not plant his ice ax shaft up to the head to anchor. I nearly flipped that he and some others didn't have this basic skill down. I made a hasty decision to join this team two days before hand, without actually meeting them. It was a risky decision on their part as well to accept me, but I guess the one person I knew "vouched" for my experience. It turned out they were much more inexperienced than I was led to believe. They were a great bunch of people but definitely green when it came to technical mountaineering. Not that the emmons is at all technical by most standards. I was also shocked to see how many parties had difficulty crossing the bergschrund. This caused a terrible bottle-neck, especially when people started descending that way from the summit. People were knocking down dinner plates of ice and snow. Again, when we decended, we didnt knock off anything except little bits of ice that the rope got caught behind every now and then. I saw guys going up the stair-steps on their hands and knees! It took some guys over 10 minutes to move up the blasted thing. I was up the thing in less than 60 seconds, and maybe even faster. In retrospect, I should have blazed my own trail up further to the east. It would have been more fun too. That was definitely the most fun part of the climb. I was NOT the leader of the group either. However, I'm glad I was there because I think they did not fully realize that you can die or get hurt even on a "Sidewalk" like emmons. I'm scared to think what could have happened if I wasnt there to talk sense into them (not that they listened too often) I'm not trying to slam them either. I made mistakes by trying to lead by voice rather than example. Last year I climbed the Kautz in July and had a completely different experience. I climbed with 3 long-time climbing partners. There was NEVER any sketchy shit going down as far as I can remember. And this route was at least a magnitude higher in difficulty (but it still was never too tough except for the altitude of course). I learned 2 lessons from climbing the Emmons. 1) Never rely on partners that you have no experience with, no matter what they say. TRust can only come from experiencing the actions of others. 2) Avoid crowded routes during peak seasons like the plague! This route was not my first choice but I was really itching to climb Rainier again soon and I found this group at the last minute. I will be more patient next time. I wont be back on the Emmons in summer for sure, especially on a weekend! I prefer somewhat more technical routes like the Kautz, Lib Ridge, etc. My intent in writing my original statement was simply to warn others contemplating this route about the mindset that exists up there. I heard about sketchy stuff second-hand, but had no idea how bad in reality it was. Whatever happens on the Emmons will not directly effect me from now on unless a huge accident occurs which puts huge restrictions on climbing on the mountain.

We were on the Kautz in July of 2004. We camped at the Waypowty Cleaver camp as well. We too saw all the green pieces of riveted aluminum scattered among the rocks. (We also saw blue bags scattered among the rocks but thats another story.) The stuff looked pretty old. I doubt it was pieces of a Cessna (who's ever seen a green cessna?). It seems more likely that this was the from the 1968 crash.

I can understand your frustration with less experienced parties, but by acting like a pretentious elitist you aren't helping things. You can always politely ask the party in front if they mind if you pass. The way you talk, you make it sound like you own the whole mountain. I bet even you were a pencil-necked newbie at some point. Like knelson put it, Everyone has to start from somewhere. Some choose to climb Rainier because it will be the biggest challange of their lives. Others climb it to train for bigger mountains. Some climb it to share a higher experience with their friends. Still others do it merely out of ego to impress others or get into someone else's pants. But hey, its your life and you can do whatever the fuck with it you want. I am just asking for you to mimimize fucking with mine in the process. Remember, a rescue situation puts many others at risk. So do your homework and make an honest assessment of your skills and condition before you get on the mountain. And when you do get on it, continue to evaluate how you are doing, as well as your partners' condition. There is no shame in admitting that maybe you bit off more than you could chew. Its okay to turn around, no one is going to laugh at you. Most will actually respect you for having the balls to admit that you were beat. The summit isnt everything anyway. Some of the best lessons come from failure. I'm convinced that one of the main reasons people die up there is related to hubris.

Attention to all climbers and especially climbing rangers and mountain guides, your input to the following would be greatly appreciated: I am writing this to raise awareness and hope it will prevent future accidents. Based on what I experienced this Sunday, I feel compelled to speak out. I know I am going to get shit for writing this but I believe its worth it if it will prevent senseless accidents from occurring. The Emmons route is becoming a speedway on the weekends due to the excellent conditions, weather, and crowds that it attracts. Its only a matter of time before there is a catastrophe. This Sunday, I was on the Emmons Glacier route, which we shared with over 100 climbers. It seemed pretty dangerous. From about 1 AM until sunrise there was a continuous line of uninterrupted headlamps from Emmons flats all the way to the upper mountain. You couldn’t tell where the headlamps ended and the stars began. It was quite surreal. I kept thinking about all the accident reports I have read and this sounded like a classic case of overcrowding and lack of regard for one’s actions in respect to others. I saw a lot of scary, dangerous, and inconsiderate shit happen on Sunday and Monday. However, most people I met on the mountain were great, considerate, and had a respectful attitude. It was just a handful of climbers that really did some questionable things. But that’s all it takes for a tragedy to occur on a crowded route. At least one and maybe another rope team passed us by moving above us on the high side of the slope, even though there was ample room downslope to pass. I am always happy to let faster parties pass if there is a safe spot to stop, but jesus christ its a favor, so please dont endanger me and my friends by passing upslope of us. If you fall while next to us, you are going to come across our rope and likely take us down with you. Always pass another party by staying downslope if it is possible. If it is not possible, make sure the party you are passing is comfortable with you passing above. A member of my team took a little slip and pulled me off my feet as well, around 11,500. We were able to self-arrest quickly but it really hit home that even on a “tame” route like the Emmons, shit can happen even on 20-30 degree slopes when its icy. Combine that with an overcrowded situation, good weather (which will make people underestimate the mountain), lack of respect for the mountain and other climbers, and inexperienced climbers--something really bad (epic proportions) could happen soon. There have been a string of accidents lately and I’m afraid the good weather is going to only make the overcrowding worse. I hope I am wrong but lets plan for the worst to prevent this! On Monday, we were coming down from Schurman. The main way to get to the inter glacier is to descend the Emmons to the east for a few hundred feet and then to climb a loose talus slope. The slope is 3rd to 4th class and bottoms out into a deep moat. So a fall here would be bad. There is a fairly well worn trail here and the NPS even has a few wands to mark the route up higher, which traverses up and right. As we were unroping to do the unprotected climb, we allowed a party of two to pass us. I wont mention names but you should know who you are. They started going up, but then I was a bit baffled when they failed to move to the right where the established trail was. I figured maybe they were a bit sketched out and were afraid to traverse. They were kicking down a lot of rocks. Then they disappeared and the rockfall stopped. We figured they got past the loose section. As we were waiting for them, another group queued up behind us. We figured that we had better get moving because even still more parties were on their way. There were 4 climbers in our party and we figured the most efficient and safest way was to have two people ascend at a time close together. Before my 2 friends were able to traverse, rock began to rain down again from above. These ranged in size from quarters to dinner plates. The rocks had them pinned down in the worst possible spot. They were unable to move due to their precarious position and the rocks raining down, all they could do was lean into the slope and hope their packs would protect them. It was horrible to watch. We and the group queued up behind us were screaming at the top our lungs to tell the guys above to stop moving until our friends were safely out of the way, but the rock just kept falling. It was ridiculous. The rock fell for what seemed an eternity but it was at least for 10 minutes. A rock the size of a baseball hit my friend square on the head. Luckily, he was shaken but okay. Finally, the rock fall stopped and they were able to get out of the way to a safer spot. Please have consideration for the climbers below you. This dangerous situation could have been avoided if you simply were more careful and climber to the right out of the way where the trail was. I know it’s a loose slope and easy to knock stuff down but do your best not to. I was able to get up it without kicking off a single rock other than a little gravel sliding some. I’m an experienced rock climber and don’t expect everyone on rainier to have these skills but at least make the effort. You are not the only one on the mountain. Rainier is not in some remote third world country. Its overcrowded and thus we must realize while climbing it that we must share. No one has more right to climb a route than any other. If a huge accident happens, this may cause severe restrictions on climbing. If you want to climb it without crowds there are a handful of routes during anytime of the year that you can have the whole climb to yourself. Go there if you are going to have no regard for others. We have consideration for you, so please return the favor. Stop endangering other climbers as well as our privilege to climb there.

yes, when you check out where you registered to climb. I think they should do something to limit the number of climbers on a summit route per day.

Came across their tent on Sunday right below the bergschrund around 13,500. This was on the way down, and we were hoping to find fuel in the tent since we were out of water and wanted some for the descent. Funny, we had a stove and pot but no fuel. Still trying to figure that oversight out. Altitude can make one forgetful. We had a radio and called our friends at schurman to ask the rangers what the story on the tent was. They said have at it. My partner was too out of it to do anything so as he rested on the dug out tent platform, I ransacked the two bags in the tent. Then I noticed that everything was covered in drops of blood. There were bloody rags, bandaids, and bandages all over. It was obvious that some shit went down. I felt somewhat guilty at the time that someones misfortune would possibly provide our deliverance. The packs were full of warm clothing and sleeping bags and miscellaneous junk. It looked like everything was stuffed in there in a hurry. I found pots and I think a stove but there were no fuel canisters anywhere. Talk about a tease. Water, water everywhere and not a drop to drink. So we gave up on melting snow with a stove and decided to melt snow in our nalgenes hanging outside our packs. Then we started to descend. The sun was beating down like mad. This trick worked thank god. We got down okay once we got a little water and descended further. To the owners of the packs that I ransacked: I am sorry for your accident. I tried to find any personal momentos of value in the packs that maybe you would want but only found gear. So its all still up there as far as I know. We only wanted to borrow some fuel to melt snow since we were feeling somewhat desperate at the time. I wish you all a speedy recovery and hope you gain wisdom from your experience. I know I did from our own climb.

Nice and ironic timing! The irony is that this Sunday the record for oldest climber to summit was reset at age 82 (topping his record last year at 81). He climbed the Emmons. I am forgetting his name now sadly, but I'm sure someone will chime in. The best part is that he and his son completely kicked our asses, flat out. The young and the old, gettin it done in style! Just goes to show that age is relative and you can learn from anyone if your mind is open... Side note: how many people summited on Sunday? The ranger at Schurman said 72 via Emmons alone! Talk about a crowded sidewalk to the summit. Looking at the headlamps up and down the mountain from our rope was pretty surreal. I'm glad no accidents occured due to the crowding. It looked like an epic disaster waiting to happen. Luckily, the mountain was kind to us--as far as I know.

Oh dear. Simple, yes, but wrong and misapplied. I just love it when the equations come out... Maybe you would like to back up your statement with some logic on why it is wrong or misapplied... Prove me wrong and I will happily reevaluate my ideas. Thanks.

Slack is almost always bad when you are belaying someone below you, especially on steep angles when , whether your anchor is stationary (a picket) or moving (a climber). Almost right, f=m*a (mass x acceleration) equals force. The longer you fall, the higher the acceleration. The higher the acceleration, the higher the force. momentum equals mass * velocity (p=m*v) . Simple physics. However, a dynamic belay is better than a static belay. Letting rope slip, as in a boot-axe or body belay, distributes the force (or the impulse) over a longer period of time. therefore, the anchor sees a lower maximum force. impulse (Ft)=mass* final velocity - mass * initial velocity. Impulse is the change in the momentum of a body (or falling climber) caused over a very short time. J = F delta t = delta p . delta means change in. Just trying to break down the arguments into their component parts using physics. Of course there are a few more variables to consider. Like is the belayer's self arrest able to withstand a greater force than a boot axe belay? Likely not. considering he is also trying to stop the forces his body is generating if he is moving. So maybe a little bit of slack is good to allow ... I dont have time to go into it. so if some engineer or physicist would like to take up the gauntlet, please educate! Thanks Issac Newton!