SemoreJugs

Maybe you are hard of reading? We moved out of the way for ANYONE faster. But just because you are faster does not give you the right to be disrespectful. Has it occured to you that maybe you climb too fast for the route you are on. You know there will be slow people, so why not go elsewhere? Or blaze your own boottrack up the mountain. Or start earlier so you dont have to pass anyone. Thats what I would and will do from now on when I feel like the crowds are dangerous. It sounds like you need more of a challenge anyway. But maybe you enjoy feeling superior to the "slow JONGs". How's that working out for you? Do you feel good about yourself by denegrating others? Joking about being a silly greenhorn is one thing, but saying fuck-off is quite another. Not even Alex Lowe was born with an ice ax in his hand. I guess you never get passed. Whos your sponsor? Maybe you go to Rainier to feel good about yourself by comparing yourselves to newbies because you cant keep up with people at your experience level? I think you are really weak and afraid inside. You might not even know it yet, but one day you will realize this, and that will be one hell of a reckoning. It happened to me. Good Luck to you.

arch. Okay I just reread your post and now it makes more sense. Just because you grow in power does not mean you have to get a big head about it. That is the pitfall of power. The secret is to limit and eventually kill the ego along the way.

humbleness and weakness have no connection. IT is only percieved that way. True power comes from liberation from the ego. Thats what I've learned from my experiences at least. And then look at figures from history... The Dali Lama. Most humble guy you have ever met. Somehow, China entirely oppose him. There are still buddist temples in Lhasa. Ghandi. Never raised a fist, he was puny. Yet the entire british empire could not withstand his inner might. Nelson Mandela. Spent most of his life a prison. Yet they were afraid to kill him. Finally his power, which reached out to others, freed him. Now his outward, external power is shining. It all begins from within by killing the ego. Think of all the "great" iron-fisted kings and dictators that have fallen due to their egomania. They really had no true power when people saw thru their posturing. Hussein acted like a tough-guy baddass. REally, he was afraid of everything. Thats why he had his close relatives killed. Thats why he killed thousands of kurds. Thats why he killed anyone that spoke against his regime (inside or out). He was afraid the truth would surface. We saw thru his posturing and knew that he was actually quite weak. And where did we find him when we challenged his "mighty power"? Hiding at the bottom of a hole. Hilter killed himself. Has any oppressive egomaniac dictactor gone out in a blaze of glorious honor? I cant think of one.

First off, amazing, eye-opening thread! I couldnt agree more with the OP. As I read through the thread, I started to notice the egos come out. EGO is a killer. Something I realized on Rainier this weekend. It also hinders one's mind and soul from growth. No one is exempt from it. Double E hit the nail on the head. How different are we, really, from computer geeks in a spiritual sense? Sure we drink way less mountain dew but more beer and gatorade. Ego was a huge problem in my own party as well as some of the parties on the Emmons last Sunday that were creating dangerous situations for others. Take a hard look at yourself. Do you realize that you are no more important than anyone, or thing, on this earth? Look at Seattle from Rainier when the sunlight is reflecting off the skyscrapers, how insignificant does it look? Than think about how insigificant you must look on rainier from Seattle. We are a joke to the mountain. IF it so chooses, it can swallow us whole. But by some grace, it usually allows safe passage. I come to the mountains to be humbled. And I constantly am. Sometimes, my ego gets in the way. Its a fight. Sometimes I think I am "better" than the "touron" asking about how the rope got up there. Sometimes I judge myself to be more worthy of a route than someone else. But I am realizing these are hinderances to my own growth as well as to connecting to others and helping to lift them up. Despite our insignificance, we are not alone in this universe. That is the beauty of it. Lets move forward and lift each other up, instead of cutting each other down. Carl SAgan's remarks on the famous "Pale Blue Dot" picture taken 4 BILLION miles from EArth by Voyager 1 in 1991:

Bandit. Maybe you missed this the first time so I'll quote myself... So WTF are you talking about? Read the whole thing before you try tearing me a new one and talking about shiny REI gear. And sorry, I dont play golf.

hey thats a great idea. My bad for overlooking such an obvious detail... except that is exactly what we did when given the chance. Anytime a party came up behind us, out last member did in fact try to communicate with the leader of the upcoming rope party. And we stepped aside uphill of the boot track everytime unless the boottrack was 20 feet wide which it was in some cases. Most parties did pass low side and it was just these 2 jerk-offs that ignored our requests and put us in danger. Addressing the other comment from Dru: Yeah, I was pretty shocked myself that my ropemate fell. After the fall, I demanded to know why he fell. IT turned out he took a rest on his knees and did not plant his ice ax shaft up to the head to anchor. I nearly flipped that he and some others didn't have this basic skill down. I made a hasty decision to join this team two days before hand, without actually meeting them. It was a risky decision on their part as well to accept me, but I guess the one person I knew "vouched" for my experience. It turned out they were much more inexperienced than I was led to believe. They were a great bunch of people but definitely green when it came to technical mountaineering. Not that the emmons is at all technical by most standards. I was also shocked to see how many parties had difficulty crossing the bergschrund. This caused a terrible bottle-neck, especially when people started descending that way from the summit. People were knocking down dinner plates of ice and snow. Again, when we decended, we didnt knock off anything except little bits of ice that the rope got caught behind every now and then. I saw guys going up the stair-steps on their hands and knees! It took some guys over 10 minutes to move up the blasted thing. I was up the thing in less than 60 seconds, and maybe even faster. In retrospect, I should have blazed my own trail up further to the east. It would have been more fun too. That was definitely the most fun part of the climb. I was NOT the leader of the group either. However, I'm glad I was there because I think they did not fully realize that you can die or get hurt even on a "Sidewalk" like emmons. I'm scared to think what could have happened if I wasnt there to talk sense into them (not that they listened too often) I'm not trying to slam them either. I made mistakes by trying to lead by voice rather than example. Last year I climbed the Kautz in July and had a completely different experience. I climbed with 3 long-time climbing partners. There was NEVER any sketchy shit going down as far as I can remember. And this route was at least a magnitude higher in difficulty (but it still was never too tough except for the altitude of course). I learned 2 lessons from climbing the Emmons. 1) Never rely on partners that you have no experience with, no matter what they say. TRust can only come from experiencing the actions of others. 2) Avoid crowded routes during peak seasons like the plague! This route was not my first choice but I was really itching to climb Rainier again soon and I found this group at the last minute. I will be more patient next time. I wont be back on the Emmons in summer for sure, especially on a weekend! I prefer somewhat more technical routes like the Kautz, Lib Ridge, etc. My intent in writing my original statement was simply to warn others contemplating this route about the mindset that exists up there. I heard about sketchy stuff second-hand, but had no idea how bad in reality it was. Whatever happens on the Emmons will not directly effect me from now on unless a huge accident occurs which puts huge restrictions on climbing on the mountain.

We were on the Kautz in July of 2004. We camped at the Waypowty Cleaver camp as well. We too saw all the green pieces of riveted aluminum scattered among the rocks. (We also saw blue bags scattered among the rocks but thats another story.) The stuff looked pretty old. I doubt it was pieces of a Cessna (who's ever seen a green cessna?). It seems more likely that this was the from the 1968 crash.

I can understand your frustration with less experienced parties, but by acting like a pretentious elitist you aren't helping things. You can always politely ask the party in front if they mind if you pass. The way you talk, you make it sound like you own the whole mountain. I bet even you were a pencil-necked newbie at some point. Like knelson put it, Everyone has to start from somewhere. Some choose to climb Rainier because it will be the biggest challange of their lives. Others climb it to train for bigger mountains. Some climb it to share a higher experience with their friends. Still others do it merely out of ego to impress others or get into someone else's pants. But hey, its your life and you can do whatever the fuck with it you want. I am just asking for you to mimimize fucking with mine in the process. Remember, a rescue situation puts many others at risk. So do your homework and make an honest assessment of your skills and condition before you get on the mountain. And when you do get on it, continue to evaluate how you are doing, as well as your partners' condition. There is no shame in admitting that maybe you bit off more than you could chew. Its okay to turn around, no one is going to laugh at you. Most will actually respect you for having the balls to admit that you were beat. The summit isnt everything anyway. Some of the best lessons come from failure. I'm convinced that one of the main reasons people die up there is related to hubris.

Attention to all climbers and especially climbing rangers and mountain guides, your input to the following would be greatly appreciated: I am writing this to raise awareness and hope it will prevent future accidents. Based on what I experienced this Sunday, I feel compelled to speak out. I know I am going to get shit for writing this but I believe its worth it if it will prevent senseless accidents from occurring. The Emmons route is becoming a speedway on the weekends due to the excellent conditions, weather, and crowds that it attracts. Its only a matter of time before there is a catastrophe. This Sunday, I was on the Emmons Glacier route, which we shared with over 100 climbers. It seemed pretty dangerous. From about 1 AM until sunrise there was a continuous line of uninterrupted headlamps from Emmons flats all the way to the upper mountain. You couldn’t tell where the headlamps ended and the stars began. It was quite surreal. I kept thinking about all the accident reports I have read and this sounded like a classic case of overcrowding and lack of regard for one’s actions in respect to others. I saw a lot of scary, dangerous, and inconsiderate shit happen on Sunday and Monday. However, most people I met on the mountain were great, considerate, and had a respectful attitude. It was just a handful of climbers that really did some questionable things. But that’s all it takes for a tragedy to occur on a crowded route. At least one and maybe another rope team passed us by moving above us on the high side of the slope, even though there was ample room downslope to pass. I am always happy to let faster parties pass if there is a safe spot to stop, but jesus christ its a favor, so please dont endanger me and my friends by passing upslope of us. If you fall while next to us, you are going to come across our rope and likely take us down with you. Always pass another party by staying downslope if it is possible. If it is not possible, make sure the party you are passing is comfortable with you passing above. A member of my team took a little slip and pulled me off my feet as well, around 11,500. We were able to self-arrest quickly but it really hit home that even on a “tame” route like the Emmons, shit can happen even on 20-30 degree slopes when its icy. Combine that with an overcrowded situation, good weather (which will make people underestimate the mountain), lack of respect for the mountain and other climbers, and inexperienced climbers--something really bad (epic proportions) could happen soon. There have been a string of accidents lately and I’m afraid the good weather is going to only make the overcrowding worse. I hope I am wrong but lets plan for the worst to prevent this! On Monday, we were coming down from Schurman. The main way to get to the inter glacier is to descend the Emmons to the east for a few hundred feet and then to climb a loose talus slope. The slope is 3rd to 4th class and bottoms out into a deep moat. So a fall here would be bad. There is a fairly well worn trail here and the NPS even has a few wands to mark the route up higher, which traverses up and right. As we were unroping to do the unprotected climb, we allowed a party of two to pass us. I wont mention names but you should know who you are. They started going up, but then I was a bit baffled when they failed to move to the right where the established trail was. I figured maybe they were a bit sketched out and were afraid to traverse. They were kicking down a lot of rocks. Then they disappeared and the rockfall stopped. We figured they got past the loose section. As we were waiting for them, another group queued up behind us. We figured that we had better get moving because even still more parties were on their way. There were 4 climbers in our party and we figured the most efficient and safest way was to have two people ascend at a time close together. Before my 2 friends were able to traverse, rock began to rain down again from above. These ranged in size from quarters to dinner plates. The rocks had them pinned down in the worst possible spot. They were unable to move due to their precarious position and the rocks raining down, all they could do was lean into the slope and hope their packs would protect them. It was horrible to watch. We and the group queued up behind us were screaming at the top our lungs to tell the guys above to stop moving until our friends were safely out of the way, but the rock just kept falling. It was ridiculous. The rock fell for what seemed an eternity but it was at least for 10 minutes. A rock the size of a baseball hit my friend square on the head. Luckily, he was shaken but okay. Finally, the rock fall stopped and they were able to get out of the way to a safer spot. Please have consideration for the climbers below you. This dangerous situation could have been avoided if you simply were more careful and climber to the right out of the way where the trail was. I know it’s a loose slope and easy to knock stuff down but do your best not to. I was able to get up it without kicking off a single rock other than a little gravel sliding some. I’m an experienced rock climber and don’t expect everyone on rainier to have these skills but at least make the effort. You are not the only one on the mountain. Rainier is not in some remote third world country. Its overcrowded and thus we must realize while climbing it that we must share. No one has more right to climb a route than any other. If a huge accident happens, this may cause severe restrictions on climbing. If you want to climb it without crowds there are a handful of routes during anytime of the year that you can have the whole climb to yourself. Go there if you are going to have no regard for others. We have consideration for you, so please return the favor. Stop endangering other climbers as well as our privilege to climb there.

yes, when you check out where you registered to climb. I think they should do something to limit the number of climbers on a summit route per day.

Came across their tent on Sunday right below the bergschrund around 13,500. This was on the way down, and we were hoping to find fuel in the tent since we were out of water and wanted some for the descent. Funny, we had a stove and pot but no fuel. Still trying to figure that oversight out. Altitude can make one forgetful. We had a radio and called our friends at schurman to ask the rangers what the story on the tent was. They said have at it. My partner was too out of it to do anything so as he rested on the dug out tent platform, I ransacked the two bags in the tent. Then I noticed that everything was covered in drops of blood. There were bloody rags, bandaids, and bandages all over. It was obvious that some shit went down. I felt somewhat guilty at the time that someones misfortune would possibly provide our deliverance. The packs were full of warm clothing and sleeping bags and miscellaneous junk. It looked like everything was stuffed in there in a hurry. I found pots and I think a stove but there were no fuel canisters anywhere. Talk about a tease. Water, water everywhere and not a drop to drink. So we gave up on melting snow with a stove and decided to melt snow in our nalgenes hanging outside our packs. Then we started to descend. The sun was beating down like mad. This trick worked thank god. We got down okay once we got a little water and descended further. To the owners of the packs that I ransacked: I am sorry for your accident. I tried to find any personal momentos of value in the packs that maybe you would want but only found gear. So its all still up there as far as I know. We only wanted to borrow some fuel to melt snow since we were feeling somewhat desperate at the time. I wish you all a speedy recovery and hope you gain wisdom from your experience. I know I did from our own climb.

Nice and ironic timing! The irony is that this Sunday the record for oldest climber to summit was reset at age 82 (topping his record last year at 81). He climbed the Emmons. I am forgetting his name now sadly, but I'm sure someone will chime in. The best part is that he and his son completely kicked our asses, flat out. The young and the old, gettin it done in style! Just goes to show that age is relative and you can learn from anyone if your mind is open... Side note: how many people summited on Sunday? The ranger at Schurman said 72 via Emmons alone! Talk about a crowded sidewalk to the summit. Looking at the headlamps up and down the mountain from our rope was pretty surreal. I'm glad no accidents occured due to the crowding. It looked like an epic disaster waiting to happen. Luckily, the mountain was kind to us--as far as I know.

Oh dear. Simple, yes, but wrong and misapplied. I just love it when the equations come out... Maybe you would like to back up your statement with some logic on why it is wrong or misapplied... Prove me wrong and I will happily reevaluate my ideas. Thanks.

Slack is almost always bad when you are belaying someone below you, especially on steep angles when , whether your anchor is stationary (a picket) or moving (a climber). Almost right, f=m*a (mass x acceleration) equals force. The longer you fall, the higher the acceleration. The higher the acceleration, the higher the force. momentum equals mass * velocity (p=m*v) . Simple physics. However, a dynamic belay is better than a static belay. Letting rope slip, as in a boot-axe or body belay, distributes the force (or the impulse) over a longer period of time. therefore, the anchor sees a lower maximum force. impulse (Ft)=mass* final velocity - mass * initial velocity. Impulse is the change in the momentum of a body (or falling climber) caused over a very short time. J = F delta t = delta p . delta means change in. Just trying to break down the arguments into their component parts using physics. Of course there are a few more variables to consider. Like is the belayer's self arrest able to withstand a greater force than a boot axe belay? Likely not. considering he is also trying to stop the forces his body is generating if he is moving. So maybe a little bit of slack is good to allow ... I dont have time to go into it. so if some engineer or physicist would like to take up the gauntlet, please educate! Thanks Issac Newton!

Yeah, there would have been a little suffering but I believe it would have been an acceptable margin of comfort and safety for me, I guess not for my partners. I guess it just goes to show that if you havent done alpine with a person often, you need to define goals and expectations before you leave the couch. Anyway, your advice really helped with that IT band thing. She kept doing that stretch and was able to hike out with about 20 lbs on her back. She actually beat me to the car! I have my own knee problems going downhill. And I was carrying about half her gear with mine. We though for sure that morning that we'd be leaving our packs behind and carrying her. So it worked out! Hope to bump into you again.

Just curious if anyone attempted or summited Prusik this last Sunday 6/12. We were up at Lake Vivianne and decided to bag it due to the redunkulous winds. Seemed to be 40-50mph. Even the goats were holding off on their ascent! I wanted to go (at least to check out the conditions at Prusik Pass) but my partners didnt feel like having an "adventure". I tried all methods of persuasion including the ego-challanging "pussies!", as well as the time-honored "its probably not as bad as it looks", but alas they were not budging. Our Objective was to be the west ridge. I know there were quite a few parties that also bagged it. At least 2 wanted to try the west ridge and one for South Face (Stanley and Burgner). Talked to Alister and PAt? at Vivianne after they climbed the South Face on Saturday. I pumped them for copiuos beta which they graciously revealed. Nice climbing guys! Anyways, I'm dying to know if the winds died down and at what time. We left around 8:30 AM. Gracios Amigos

Well, I went back on Saturday. I pulled into the parking lot at the Bend and saw 3 angels sitting in camping chairs tossing back some Bud. Turned out, they found my gear! What are the chances? Serious Karma points to Margeret and Scott of North Bend, and Sara. If you ever run into these guys, you already know you are dealing with honest and very cool folks!

Last Thursday, May 12, I was climbing at the Bend at Tieton. I think I left a treasure chest of gear there. We were climbing on Ed's Jam and a few climbs to the left about 300 yards around the corner. I thought my partner picked this stuff up but when he checked his pack today it wasnt there. Most biners are marked with green tape, some are newer and are unmarked. If you return these to me, I will be forever grateful. I will even give you one of the pieces if you have the need for it. Lost Gear: 3.0 Clog Cam 3.5 WC Friend 2 orange mammut double length runners w/ 2 biners each a set of Wild Country Nuts 1-7 and a few misc brands in that range pink, red tricam There may be one or two other pieces and or biners and slings but these are the ones I am certain about 206-919-2077 cascade_peaks@yahoo.com