archenemy

I thought you were the Rooster?

I disagree with this mainly because there are examples of other cultures that do not follow this model. After growing up, I have only been with sensitive men. The bad boy thing is easy to outgrow. When I hear my women friends say they need the hormone driven madman, we get into some pretty deep discussions. Without an exception, my friends have mentioned that they were just not ready to settle down or had a need for the drama that they get from that type of guy b/c they hadn't really developed their own life as fully as they'd wished. I am sure there are many other reasons for this, but my guess is that men don't get any insight into them (as women tend to not understand or not share that information). And therefore, it is easier to use this commonly accepted belief to not progress beyond the hormone-washed brain into a thoughtful man who practises examining his beliefs and actions--no matter how painful that process might be.

I'd interject that the reason this happens is because women were not really given any other options. You will continue to see this change as our mores change and accept outspoken, strong women who were not raised to stay in the background.

well, I've met people who think a Russian mail-order bride will get them some submissive woman, and they get a rude awakening. I bet! Women are no more likely to be willing to be oppressed than any other group. This comes as a surprise to some folks.

Some do think about it...then they get made fun of by other men for being a wuss. This, I think, is the heart of the problem. Folks who are happy with the cultural norms (they are the usually ones that directly benefit from it--even at the cost of others') will pressure/ostrasize/deride those who dare to question them. Yet, it is that very group of people--those men who question the norms in the company of other men--who are one of the most important keys to actually changing things. I don't envy those folks. Being a man in today's culture must be confusing and demanding beyond comprehension. It must feel like getting pulled from every direction at once.

I think he's just generalizing. The main point is true.

it seems to me the comments were aimed at objectifying and denigrating the WOMEN. Race was secondary, and more tightly related to *class* and class-stereotypes. that was my gut reaction to this. And I this this is backed up by other comments that CNN aired by Imus. CNN was saying that Imus had previously made racial remarks, and then quoted him. I found it interesting that all these racial comments were directed at black women. It could have just been a sampling issue, but it was hard to miss nonetheless. Also, since you are unfamiliar with Imus, I will let you know that the shit he says about women was so offensive that I refused to listen to him. That's bad. How bad? I am a fan of Howard Stern--and that dude talks some shit. But Imus wasn't even amusing when he talked about women. I couldn't stomach it--and I have a very rough sense of humor. Well, the quotes I have seen printed about past comments he's made make this latest round look pretty tame. As for Imus, I think it's hilarious that such a ugly loser is commenting on the relative merits of young women's desirability. The dude's hair and eyebrows compete with Donald Trump's combover on the ridiculousness Richter scale.

That is a good point!

I am not surprised by this. I am surprised that many men in our culture in this time still speak that way without thinking about it.

funny, why not just s/he?

You honestly think that is funny or clever? Bill, what's happened to you?

but first read what they do with your data. Better yet, read The Search, by Battelle.

it seems to me the comments were aimed at objectifying and denigrating the WOMEN. Race was secondary, and more tightly related to *class* and class-stereotypes. that was my gut reaction to this. And I this this is backed up by other comments that CNN aired by Imus. CNN was saying that Imus had previously made racial remarks, and then quoted him. I found it interesting that all these racial comments were directed at black women. It could have just been a sampling issue, but it was hard to miss nonetheless. Also, since you are unfamiliar with Imus, I will let you know that the shit he says about women was so offensive that I refused to listen to him. That's bad. How bad? I am a fan of Howard Stern--and that dude talks some shit. But Imus wasn't even amusing when he talked about women. I couldn't stomach it--and I have a very rough sense of humor.

Nope, not at all. It is a common thing that I see and hear all the time. I am really just curious why it is so ingrained? And I am curious if folks have considered the implications to their audience when they communicate this way.

yeah some are from Japan and Greenland If you want to go far enough back then you have to say that we are all of African heritage, no? I am not an expert about this--frankly it never really interested me much. But am I totally off the mark here?

Also, just an observation that I find a little amusing. Why is it that folks use the parenthetical for women and gals in this discussion? I can tell you how this may come across: that a person who utilizes this punctuation (which, by the way, is also easy to hear when a person is talking and throws in the old "and women" into their sentence) that has internalized the belief that females are secondary or an afterthought to the primary group--males. I am not putting down anyone who does this, I am merely inviting them to examine an aspect of their communication that they may not be aware of.

Will the persecution of people of African slave descent in America ever die? WTF??? When will cultural norms shoot down the public bigotry and mysogny that would never be tolerated by white men? I couldn't care less about Imus or who is saying this shit on the radio. It's the persistence of the sentiments and beliefs, a century and a half after the end of slavery, and decades after the end of Jim Crow, after the end of segregation, after the passage of the Civil Rights laws, that make me sick over the nastiness and pretension of racial and physical superiority of people. Disgust. Not all black people are from Africa. To continue to state this is to continue to support our ignorance around this issue. Furthermore, not all blacks who live in America are decendents of slaves.

Tolerance levels.

Sounds like you got just far enough to infect your computer.

If you can get onto the Evergreen Point Floating Bridge before 7 am, you are okay. After that it's terrible. This brings up an important point. What time do you plan on commuting? I go from as Ballard (by Golden Gardens, so as Northwest as you can be) to Bellevue. If I leave home before 7am and leave work before 4pm, I can make the drive in 30-40 min. This is the longest commute I have had since I moved to Seattle. It's all about timing.

Alien Insert?

hmmm, i don't remember any seamen.

You should work in tech support.

problems here too. I think there is actually a wider issue going on right now as there are a number of organizations who cannot get online at all. Teh Interwebs is broken!

I feel your pain on that one. Even had one bail half way up Astroman and that was supposed to be a quickie. Disapointing.