high_on_rock

I find it helpful to watch someone far better than I am climb something that i am having trouble with. When I am in a fist-fight with a route, watching someone dance up gracefully gets me to quit fighting so hard and relax my way up a route. MHO

MattP seems to be merely asserting that the end justifies the means, where as Joseph’s pure ethic is that the means justify the end. Neither is right, neither is wrong. There are some interesting points being brought out. Who has the “experience” to make the call as to when a bolt goes in or not? Is it the bolt that matters, or the way the bolt was put in. When I climb a route and encounter a bolt, I really don’t care if it was hand drilled or power drilled, whether it was placed on first accent or later on, or whether it was on lead or on rap. I merely encounter a bolt and decide whether it was placed well, and whether I want to use it or skip it. If it is near a crack and I have my rack with me I may skip the bolt and place pro. Or I may put a quick draw in the bolt and pull on the draw to help me reach the next hold, or I may hangdog off of it and rest; at no time caring whether it was a powerdrill or not. I guess this makes me an “end justifies the means” type of guy. I climb for fun, for adventure, for exercise, and for camaraderie. Somedays I like to push my fear buttons, other days I want completely safe climbing. Somedays I want easy climbing, somedays I want hard climbing. The only thing I don’t want is some jerk imposing rules on me about how I must climb, which bolts I must clip or cannot clip, telling me their rules of life and expecting me to either care or live by them. How about Joseph climbs by his personal rules (which seem to flex for the moment); and I will climb by my personal rules (which often flex). Freedom and independence. Peace, respect, brotherhood.

Man, they all work. Use what you have and make it work. When you run out, buy what is cheap or what suits you. Merely MHO

People talk about rock as though it is sacred. Every day, we grind up rock to drive on, we dump it in holes to fill them, we blast it for mining. Even out in the back country, I pee on it and shat (only non-stinky shats) on it all the time. I know that in some parts of the world they hold cows sacred, some feel a flag is sacred, and my ex wife finds my income sacred; but when did “rock” become sacred?

Ropes are disposable. We were up in Canada three years ago on an unnamed peak doing a FA traverse, and had to do something like 20 raps to get off. We used up all of our slings, webbing, and cut up an entire rope for anchors by the time we got off. My recollection is that when we hit flat land we had one more short piece of rope left, then we would have had to start cutting our brand new rope. Frightening stuff, many of those anchors. Mostly just rapping off knots and chockstones. (edit: I am not sure many of the anchors would have passed a Mountie test, but it was back country where you do what you have to do.) Ropes are just tools, to be used and replaced.

Bill, I know that no one will change their opinions by losing the anonymity, but perhaps we can change it into more of a discussion than an argument. Easier to piss on a name than it is a real person. Note for the record that Bill posts his photo with his blogs.

Sherri, I love and miss you! Eric

Maybe we should all post photos of eachother to get rid of this annonimity crap, that way when we see eachother at the rock we can say "hi" rather than merely piss on eachother on the internet. I would be the less young of the two. Come on DRyan, Share.

"What I advocate isn't complicated - it's don't ignorantly bolt sh#t where it raises a big red flag to land manager and don't put up a 22 pitch sport climbs in the North Cascades. Now, if those two requests are too arduous and defiling of folks' sense of personal freedom then hey, what exactly would constitute a limit for you?" What would constitute too much of a violation of my freedom is if they insisted that I clip into those bolts to climb it. As is, I can choose to climb it any way I want, as can you, as can they. Without the bolts, we are all forced to climb it your way - like it or not. Freedom of choice baby!

Don't worry about it DRyan, you don't need to hide behind your darth Vader mask to give an opinion. I am Eric Christianson, you have met Matt Perkins, John is wide open with his identity, as is Joeseph. back off the Darth Vader stuff and just have a civil conversation. Stealth and decoder rings are not necessary.

I am averaging -4 for the month.

When you are attached to 200 feet of rope, why do you need a cordelette? You have slings, draws, and rope already, why pack more.

there is a difference between "ignorance of the law" and "mistake of fact."

True Marylou, but this is not a debate about drills power drills v. hand drills, it is a debate about whether one should impose personal ethics on others. Write the drillers a ticket, fine them, put them in jail; that crime (if they did it knowingly) is in the past. By the way, nice post Bill

Ethics are a personal thing, and trying to enforce yours or impute yours onto someone else is simply wrong (according to my ethics.) Bullying and trying to enforce your own will over others is simply wrong (according to my ethics.) These bolts hanging on IB, I am assuming that the only people who will ever see them are climbers, who can then make a personal and individual choice whether or not to clip into them. Wow, freedom of choice, individual ethics. cool concept.

Heck Layton; now that you are "official" I cannot afford you (no insurance). Thanks for the invite, but I am currently fouling Spokane with my presence. But really folks, if Layton, Sherri, or Mattp ever have to buy their own drinks, then we are failing them. I will belay slave for any of you any time. Eric

Sitting my butt behind a BFR and throwing on a hip belay is both an anchor and a belay. I quess I have also used a hip belay on Sport routes also; top of Whereever I shall Roam at Smith; Monkey face (not the aid pitch).

Joseph, you argue your point well. I believe the difference in our opinions are that you disagree with the new climbers being there if they don't climb old-school; whereas i believe in getting as many people out into nature as possible.

Ya, but John doesn't he seem like a virile stud when he tries to sound like a rebel over the internet?

Perhaps rather than speculating about the numbers feeling one way or the other, someone who knows how to do these things could set up a poll to see what the cc.c statistics would be

Moderators, perhaps we should create a PayPal "donate to Layton" button to help fund the education behind all of this tremendous advice we get. Or perhaps just offer Layton, Sherri, Mattp, and a few of the others who are so darn helpful a larger font on their posts to give their posts greater significance than the rest of us. I for one am darn grateful. Eric

Am I the only one who gets turned on when Rainhawg starts his "I want to be a rebel" manly attitude.

I use a hip belay quite often on trad routes. Quick, simple, effecient.

The edk is an overhand knot. With a short tail the knot can "roll" and it can become a death knot. With a long tail it is merely an overhand knot that will fulfill all of your needs.

I climbed top-rope with my one year old on my back in a pack, and the crowd almost lynched me. One must be too young.