chris

Another option is the smaller Washington Alpine Club. http://www.wacweb.org/default.view

Will's post earlier on this thread inspired to go digging through a box I hadn't looked into in quite some time. I also just finished reading Tom Moyer's online report - in full, and the accident reports that he sites. http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html The top of Moyer's webpage is dated 9 November 1999. This is actually incorrect and misleading, since at the bottom of the page (out of sight unless you scroll down), an update was November of 2003 - I actually have a hard copy of this report given to me by the AMGA. I think the most imformative part of the report is Moyer's final opinions after examining the data. Another valuable source is one of the accidents that Moyers cites, http://www.geocities.com/danielzimmerlin/pages/stories/knot.html Especially, Magnuson's final thoughts in the last three paragraphs. Finally, I'd like to point out the contrast of Moyer's #9 #15, and #17 tests. All three tests involved an 11mm and 8mm cords tied together - and were the only tests that involved cords of dis-similar diameter. The test tied with a figure-eight didn't begin to "roll" or "capsize" until 1330 lbs. Tests #15 and #17 involved overhand knots and failed at lower weights - 1230lbs dry, 950lbs wet. With only one exception (the wet rope test #10), every knot that failed under 500 lbs was tied "sloppy" or "loose." This was pretty cool - Will actually got me reconsidering why I do what I do, and inspired me to go looking up data to prove or disprove my statements - and I was curious if I was working with some incorrect assumptions. But my opinion is that Moyer's data actually supports my orginal claims rather than refuting them. Or I could just be lucky...

current-favorite-on-my-car award:"Alpinists do it longer" (just got put on my car, special thanks to Mike Layton for it) best-political award: "BU**SH**" scariest-one-to-contemplate award: "Bush in November '04 = Draft in December '04"

Craig Lueben writes about overhand knots in his Falcon Press guide "How to Rappel."

And here's another posting from an English site. I have to admit I haven't done more than glance through it: http://www.planetmountain.com/English/Lab/techniques/abseiling/ab2.html

I just went searching on Petzl's website, since I had heard they have done load tests on static knots. At least as of 2003 they were still showing diagrams with overhand knots. Look here: http://www.petzl.com/petzl/SportConseils?MotRecherche=Quick+Search&Langue=en&Activite=14&Famille=1&Conseil=38&Produit=&SousFamille=

A fig8 version of the EDK has a greater propensity to "roll/capsize/etc" along the strands than an overhand. (not the same kind of roll as in "pass over terrain "like you are talking about). DO NOT TIE THIS KNOT. I HIGHLY SUGGEST you read this study (don't miss the chart of results at the bottom where Fig8 style EDK capsized at 300lb and less). Will, I looked up the report you're refering to - its several years older then the data I have (1999 versus 2002). Using a flat knot is accepted standard of practice within the International Federation of Mountain Guide Associations (IFMGA or UIAGM), and the AMGA. More recent studies have shown it to be reliable. Also, all the "flipping" at less than 300 lbs in the 1999 study occurred in "sloppy" knots. Furthermore, that study was addressing the knots use in Rescue scenarios, which can easily have loads over 600 pounds. And please re-read my original post. I actually use two overhand knots - the first to hold the weight, and a second to act as a stoper in the event that the first flips. I have never had a flat knot flip, neither the figure eight nor the overhand. It may take a few weeks, but I'll try to get the data I have posted. It would make for interesting discussion.

Rainy Pass Repair on Roosevelt in the U-District. They do all of Dana's pack warranty repairs. The downtown Patagonia retail store send their warranty repair work there too. I've had two packs, two jackets, one pair of gaiters, and numerous zippers repaired by them. Rainy Pass and gets !!

I use a 7mm rap line, and tie it to the 9.4mm lead line with two overhands (aka euro-death knots). If I'm using a 10mm+ lead line, then I use a figure-eight. If I'm really nervous, I'll thread the lead rope through the rap-ring for the "catch the knot trick." Believe it or not, the overhand is just as strong as a figure-eight, only harder to untie. Both share the "rolling" characteristic to go over edges, making either knot acceptable - just make sure you have plenty of tail! There has been static load evidence that smaller-diameter cord, such as 6mm, may pull through an overhand knot when more than 300 lbs are applied. The diameter of the lead line, and the difference between the two, appear to play a role in this as well as well. I've been using this strategy now for five years, and I'm still walking this earth. Either my mom's Irish luck is working for me too, or I'm doing something right... I haven't gone smaller than 7mm for a couple of reasons; 1) it gets hard to grip 5-6mm cord in bare hands, let alone gloved, and 2) I actually have my rap line about twenty feet longer than my lead line, so if I need to leave behind rap anchors, I can simply cut the end of the 7mm, and 7mm strength = aprox. 5000 lbs of force, which means in can be used in climbing anchors too.

When I last climber the Dreamer, all the anchors were littered with rap slings of every model, make, and nationality - including the old-old-school "American Death Triangles." Some the the anchors were so badly cluttered I had to cut away old, faded trash to clip the bolts. I'm contemplating climbing it again next month and adding quick-links and chain to the anchor stations. Not only would this eliminate people adding new slings and not removing the tat, but would also assist parties passing each other as one is descending and the other ascending (that FUBAR has happened to me twice on Dreamer). I wanted to lay it out for ya'll first. Anyone against it? Contributions to the project would be nice too.

To first look for partners and then to post this question can only mean one thing...007 is a troller!

I'm having the same problem as Carolyn - the poll machine says I've already voted... Thank Buddha this isn't the presidential election.....

When I was recovering last August/Spetember from a broken leg, I went up to Washington Pass and climbed the "classics." Beckey Route on Liberty, the North Face of Concord, South Arete of South Early Winter Spire, and the South Buttress on Cuthroat. They're all doable in aproach shoes that climb well - I simply taped up my ankle really well. I found that a lot of the Class 4+, easy Class 5 routes to be good for helping me redevelop my balance too. Good luck.

Check your PM's

Feathered Friends is a privately owned business. It seems to me that the owners have made the personal choice of promoting their politics over their profit margin. Its their right - and I totally respect them for it. Its odd, but not to long ago television channels, newspapers, businesses and churches all vocally supported candidates in the election process. Today, many people expect them to be apolitical, or at least silent. I believe that Feathered Friends has the right to promote the political candidate of their choice, and present it to the public however they choose.

I definitely appreciated the topos – and it would be great to see more! You guys

It depends more on the glacier than the nmber of climbers! More distance between climbers does not mean more safety, in fact too much distance makes rope management so difficult as to slow the team down. For Cascade glaciers I typically space climbers out 35 - 45 feet (measured out by armlengths), and coil the remaining amount for the end climber to carry.

This is great! Is there anyway to offer it as a PDF, so I can read it in the evening and not only when I have access to the 'net?

I'm hoping that the meeting on 20 June be used to ratify the WCC, create a leadership structure, and create a mission statement. I believe that the WCC needs to be "legitimized" by such a ratification - a majority vote by the people present. I believe this should be done BEFORE the WCC can take any action on any issues. In fact, this hopefully was considered at the preliminary meeting two months ago, and a representative of that meeting will hopefully have a proposal to offer for consideration and a vote. It would be great if several other people could take the initiative to write up proposed structures and mission statements for the "committee of the whole" - everyone present - to consider, debate, amend, and vote upon. With multiple proposals, the most favored elements of each could be combined. I'm disappointed to not be able to attend, because I'm working in California for the summer. But we NEED an organization to represent CLIMBER'S ACCESS statewide to land managers. Smaller local groups are valuable for small, local issues and events, but land managers seem to take them less seriously when considering policies larger than the local climbing club's crag. Even if you disagree with the premise of the WCC, you should attend and make your opinion heard!

FWIW My buddy took a 25-30 footer onto me this past winter . A screw that he had just placed poped out without activating the screamer while the one ~15 feet below him held. It did not have a screamer, just a single length sling. That indicates that the force required to rip the screw out, and the strength of the ice, was less than the force required to activate a Screamer. It does not mean Screamers don't work.

3 tugs = on belay 2 tugs = off belay 1 tug = falling

Yep, that right - but there's more to it than that. Whenever I'm stepping onto a climb that is multipitch, a rope stretcher, on a windy day, or does funky things like wraps around an arete, I try to remember to discuss things with my partner before hand. First, no chit-chat once the leader passes the first piece of first bolt. That way there is only limited number of things that could be said, and it lowers the chance for miscommunication. Miscommunication causes more accidents than no communication. If we do end up unable to communicate, its important to still call out the signals - often one person can be heard and the other can't. Second, we simply agree that if the rope is completely out, that the belayer can take the leader off belay, and after a few moment, when the rope comes tight the second can start climbing. If the leader reaches the anchor, ties off, calls out "off belay", and doesn't hear a response, then they know to be quick about the belay immediately after pulling in all the excess rope. Its a super-simple system that is only effective when its discussed in advance.

Columnar basalt. Same as Vantage, but much more solid and a way more cool place. The Tieton rocks!

NOLS teaches an excellent communication method that I think they spell out in "Wilderness Mountaineering." Check it out. I learned it back in 1999 and I still use it and teach much of it to my friends. It's a chuckle to hear everyone say "Thank you" in response to "On belay." If I have more time later today, I'll try to write more.