Dane

Warren Kanders had NOTHING to do with 2nd Chance until well after the Zylon issue was made public by 2nd Chance in Sept of 2003 and Zylon vest production had stopped there at 2nd C. There is a 23 month gap between faulty vest manufacture and Warren Kanders assuming control of 2nd Chance via Armor Holdings. 9/'03 to 8/'05. Some take liable and slander very seriously. I'd be real careful about what I posted that might hurt a climbing company's income or its reputation. Let me see if I can better explain the time line. "In 1998, Second Chance introduced Zylon-based body armor (bullet-resistant vests), as a lightweight alternative to kevlar. The Zylon material used in the vests was supplied by Japan-based Toyobo." Second Chance filed for bankruptcy protection in Oct. 2004 specifically because of the law suits instigated by the use of Zylon in their vests. As of 2003 an estimated 200,000 of the nation's 700,000 police officers were believed to wear vests made with Zylon, which has been used by other body armor manufacturers in the United States and Canada. In June 2005, the National Institute of Justice, the United States government agency responsible for developing safety standards, determined that these Zylon-based vests NO LONGER met the required standards and may be defective. The United States Department of Justice advised law enforcement agencies to replace the vests used by police officers. Same NIJ that certified Zylon for use in vests every year from '98 to June '05. On August 2, 2005, Second Chance was acquired by Armor Holdings, Inc. for bargain basement price of $45 million. Kanders served as the Chairman of the Board of Armor Holdings, Inc. from January 1996 and as its Chief Executive Officer from April 2003 until the sell in 2007 to BAE." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chance_(body_armor) "By 2001, Second Chance's research chief, Aaron Westrick, was pleading unsuccessfully with his company's president to replace the (Zylon) vests after his own tests showed them degrading, the memos show. "Lives and our credibility are at stake," Westrick wrote then-Second Chance president Richard Davis in a Dec. 18, 2001, memo. "We will only prevail if we do the right things and not hesitate. This issue should not be hidden for obvious safety issues and because of future litigation." Westrick urged Davis to "immediately notify our customers of the degradation problems," let those with pending orders cancel them and cease all executive bonuses to save money so the company could pay for a replacement initiative, the memo shows. But Second Chance customers were not alerted to the problems until September 2003" http://www.policeone.com/police-products/body-armor/articles/119315-Federal-prosecutors-investigate-Second-Chance-vest-maker/ "Second Chance dates to the 1970s in Central Lake, and was founded by local resident Richard Davis. It once was among country's leading producers of soft, concealable body armor for police officers. But operations started to unravel when it was sued by several states and the U.S. Justice Department over allegations that the equipment prematurely lost its bullet resistance with age, a problem the company blamed on a product supplier. Second Chance filed for bankruptcy protection in 2004 and was purchased a year later by Armor Holdings Inc. for $45 million. Armor Holdings was acquired by the British giant BAE Systems Plc in 2007 for $4.1 billion, and became known as Safariland in January '08. In October 2008, the parent company (Safariland) paid $30 million to settle the Justice Department's suit." http://record-eagle.com/antrim/x75069712/Second-Chance-closing-its-doors Controling majority interest in 2nd Chance went like this, Richard Davis '71 Karen Davis by divorce '95 Zylon problem made public by 2nd Chance '03 Bankruptcy '04 Armor Holdings in '05 BAE in July '07 Safariland in '07 (who actually paid the $30m fine) So the 2nd Chance connection should be a dead issue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zylon More on Zylon: Body Armor "Zylon gained wide use in U.S. police officers body armor protection in 1998 with its introduction by Second Chance Body Armor, Inc. .... Second Chance eventually recalled all of its zylon-containing vests, which led to its subsequent bankruptcy. In early 2005, Armor Holdings, Inc. first recalled its existing Zylon-based products, and decreased the rated lifespan warranty of new vests from 60 months to 30 months. In August 2005, AHI decided to discontinue manufacturing all of its Zylon-containing vests. This was largely based on the actions of the U.S. government's National Institute of Justice, which decertified Zylon for use in its approved models of ballistic vests for law enforcement." Looks to me like Warren Kanders stopped the production of any Zylon vests at Armor Holdings Inc once they were aware of all the issues. Even though they had tried to solve the problem by a shorter warrenty earlier and a recall of older vests. The now AHI owned, 2nd Chance had already stopped production of Zylon back in '03. A little knowledge about the history of Zylon would make you look at the production dates past June of '05 as questionable but there is no easy answer here. AHI was still producing Zylon between June and August. Then it stopped. Looks to me like Black Diamond is in good and equally important, attentive hands.

Sad. My best to friends and family. I can understand the draw as it is a beautiful climb. TR here: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=799082

I hear all kinds of irrational conversations bewteen the extreme right and the extreme left these days and talk of civil war. The numbers of lives lost should sober any thoughts of that. CONFLICT SPAN TOTALS War of Independence (1775-1783) 25,000 Quasi-War (1798-1800) 20 Barbary Wars (1801-1815) 35 War of 1812 (1812-1815) 20,000 1st Seminole War (1817-1818) 30 2nd Seminole War (1835-1842) 1,500 Mexican-American War (1846-1848) 13,283 3rd Seminole War (1855-1858) 26 Civil War (1861-1865) 623,026 Indian Wars (1865-1898) 919 Spanish-American War (1898) 2,446 Philippine War (1898-1902) 4,196 Boxer Rebellion (1900-1901) 37 Mexican Revolution (1914-1919) 35 Haiti Occupation (1915-1934) 146 World War 1 (1917-1918) 116,708 World War 2 (1941-1945) 407,316 Korean War (1950-1953) 36,914 Vietnam War (1964-1973) 58,169 El Salvador (1980-1992) 20 Beirut (1982-1984) 266 Persian Gulf Support (1987-1988) 39 Invasion of Grenada (1983) 19 Invasion of Panama (1989) 40 Persian Gulf War (1991) 269 Somalia (1992-1993) 43 Bosnia 1995 12 Afghanistan (2002-2009) 686+ Iraqi (2003-2009) 4,299+ #1 Battle of Gettysburg Date: July 1-3, 1863 Location: Pennsylvania Confederate Commander: Robert E. Lee Union Commander: George G. Meade Confederate Forces Engaged: 75,000 Union Forces Engaged: 82,289 Winner: Union Casualties: 51,112 (23,049 Union and 28,063 Confederate) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #2 Battle of Chickamauga Date: September 19-20, 1863 Location: Georgia Confederate Commander: Braxton Bragg Union Commander: William Rosecrans Confederate Forces Engaged: 66,326 Union Forces Engaged: 58,222 Winner: Confederacy Casualties: 34,624 (16,170 Union and 18,454 Confederate) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #3 Battle of Chancellorsville Date: May 1-4, 1863 Location: Virginia Confederate Commander: Robert E. Lee Union Commander: Joseph Hooker Confederate Forces Engaged: 60,892 Union Forces Engaged: 133,868 Winner: Confederacy Casualties: 30,099 (17,278 Union and 12,821 Confederate) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #4 Battle of Spotsylvania Date: May 8-19, 1864 Location: Virginia Confederate Commander: Robert E. Lee Union Commander: Ulysses S. Grant Confederate Forces Engaged: 50,000 Union Forces Engaged: 83,000 Winner: Confederacy Casualties: 27,399 (18,399 Union and 9)000 Confederate) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #5 Battle of Antietam Date: September 17, 1862 Location: Maryland Confederate Commander: Robert E. Lee Union Commander: George B. McClellan Confederate Forces Engaged: 51,844 Union Forces Engaged: 75,316 Winner: Inconclusive (Strategic Union Victory) Casualties: 26,134 (12,410 Union and 13,724 Confederate) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #6 Battle of The Wilderness Date: May 5-7, 1864 Location: Virginia Confederate Commander: Robert E. Lee Union Commander: Ulysses S. Grant Confederate Forces Engaged: 61,025 Union Forces Engaged: 101,895 Winner: Inconclusive Casualties: 25,416 (17,666 Union and 7,750 Confederate) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #7 Battle of Second Manassas Date: August 29-30, 1862 Location: Virginia Confederate Commander: Robert E. Lee Union Commander: John Pope Confederate Forces Engaged: 48,527 Union Forces Engaged: 75,696 Winner: Confederacy Casualties: 25,251 (16,054 Union and 9,197 Confederate) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #8 Battle of Stone's River Date: December 31, 1862 Location: Tennessee Confederate Commander: Braxton Bragg Union Commander: William S. Rosecrans Confederate Forces Engaged: 37,739 Union Forces Engaged: 41,400 Winner: Union Casualties: 24,645 (12,906 Union and 11,739 Confederate) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #9 Battle of Shiloh Date: April 6-7, 1862 Location: Tennessee Confederate Commander: Albert Sidney Johnston/ P. G. T. Beauregard Union Commander: Ulysses S. Grant Confederate Forces Engaged: 40,335 Union Forces Engaged: 62,682 Winner: Union Casualties: 23,741 (13,047 Union and 10,694 Confederate) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #10 Battle of Fort Donelson Date: February 13-16, 1862 Location: Tennessee Confederate Commander: John B. Floyd/Simon B. Buckner Union Commander: Ulysses S. Grant Confederate Forces Engaged: 21,000 Union Forces Engaged: 27,000 Winner: Union Casualties: 19,455 (2,832 Union and 16,623 Confederate)

I was with Bill on this until I found out the Polish school girl hottie on Sobo was 33 So I figure I have as good as chance as Sobo on this one. So I asked the wife if she would color my gray and would it help! I got a, "sure, honey, but it is white, not gray and no it won't help...just wear your cute little helmet 24/7 when you meet her". Talk about a buzz kill.

Dry an hr ago....might not be now.

Reality aint bad either.. Wouldn't that be kinda like dating the baby sitter Sobo Looks like we REALLY need to get you out on the rock again soon! Hard to belive she is 33 years old and 160cm tall Looks like she enjoys herself though!

Buying a company you assume both the assets and debts. The eventual $30 Million fine was an obvious debt Kanders inherited and was not directly or individually responisble for. I'd bet there was a clause in the contract covering the eventually though. "Investors Kanders and Schiller were wildly successful in their expansion of Armor Holdings Inc. Under their direction, Armor expanded rapidly, completing 60 acquisitions, and growing from an $11 million-a-year company to a $3.5 billion business in just 11 years. The diversified defense and homeland security company was bought by BAE Systems PLC (BAESY, BA.LN) for $4.5 billion." Looks like a good investment and good management to me on Kanders part. My point is you have no clue about the facts or Kander's involvement.

Obviously you have a reading comprehension issue. How about the actual facts? The real question is how all this (the entire topic and discussion) relates back to Clarus Chairman, Warren Kanders? The time line shows that it doesn't unless you have some specifics to add.

BS...I'd be one of the first to publically condemn both sides if the story had any resembalance of truth based on solid facts. This story is simply a fabrication of someone with extremely poor reading comprehension and a fertile imagination.

What I have found, lists two different issues. Armor Holdings actions that got them fined for bribes. http://www.tradingmarkets.com/news/stock-alert/ah_armor-holdings-elaborate-sting-set-up-a-number-of-meetings-twenty-two-are-charged-with-violating-f-831487.html Then the Zylon issues in vests...previously cited and this: http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2008/October/08-civ-901.html The real question is how all this relates back to Clarus Chairman Warren Kanders. I can not find a direct connection.

How about the rampant speculators here of wrong doing post some credible links between the management (current or past) of Clarus and the Zylon armor debacle? More here: http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100510-706620.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines By John Kell Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES Clarus Corp. (CLRS) on Monday agreed to acquire two sports-equipment manufacturing companies for a combined $135 million, as the investment vehicle looks to become a significant player in the outdoor equipment market. The company will pay $90 million in cash for Black Diamond Equipment Ltd. and $45 million for Gregory Mountain Products Inc. The Gregory Mountain payment will be half in stock valued at $6 a share and the rest in a seven-year note with a 5% coupon that will pay interest quarterly. The deal is being led by Clarus Chairman Warren Kanders; Robert Schiller, vice chairman of Gregory; as well as Peter Metcalf, a co-founder of Black Diamond who will be appointed president and chief executive of the new Clarus, which currently has no ongoing operations. Part of the transactions' allure involves investors Kanders and Schiller. The pair were wildly successful in their expansion of Armor Holdings Inc., a maker of military and heavy vehicles and soldier body armor. Under their direction, Armor expanded rapidly, completing 60 acquisitions, and growing from an $11 million-a-year company to a $3.5 billion business in just 11 years. The diversified defense and homeland security company was bought by BAE Systems PLC (BAESY, BA.LN) for $4.5 billion. Gregory is being sold by entities owned and controlled by Kanders and Schiller, who purchased Gregory through Armor in 2004, and later acquired the company from BAE in 2008. The initial acquisition of Gregory in 2004 inspired Schiller to look into the sports-equipment space. Since late 2002, Clarus has looked to use its cash and cash equivalents to acquire, merge with, or seek an operating business that would serve as a platform company. As of Dec. 31, Clarus had cash, cash equivalents and marketable securities of $82.4 million. Clarus last reported revenue in 2002. Kanders said Clarus was looking for companies with a global footprint and exposure to the Asian market. Black Diamond fit the bill. It sells skiing and climbing equipment through dealerships in the U.S. and abroad. It also sells its products on a company-run site, as well as through other online merchants. Gregory Mountain, meanwhile, sells backpacks in North America, Japan, China and France and earns more than half of its revenue in Asia. Black Diamond earns more than 40% of sales outside the U.S., with sales growth abroad outpacing the U.S. The largest development in sales-and-marketing efforts is in Europe, according to Metcalf. The company expects 2010 revenues on a combined basis to show continued growth. Last year, the two companies together produced combined revenues of approximately $113 million, according to Kanders. Metcalf said retailers were seeing a "resurgence in their business," in a number of outdoor categories, including hiking. He said that many of those outdoor activities are recession-resistant, noting Black Diamond posted an average of 14% growth over the past 20 years. For Black Diamond, the deal was key as the company faced capital limitations. It acquired four small companies over the past 20 years, and needed a jolt to launch itself into a space that has seen a number of acquisitions in recent years. Metcalf said there isn't a publicly traded entity that focuses on the space the way Clarus intends to. Clarus' board of directors and officers will together own about 35% of the approximately 21.6 million outstanding shares following the completion of the deal. The transactions are expected to close in the second quarter. Clarus expects to seek shareholder approval at its next annual meeting to adopt "Black Diamond Equipment" as the company's new name. The company expects to be headquartered in Salt Lake City. -By John Kell, Dow Jones Newswires; 212-416-2480; john.kell@dowjones.com

Here is more of what I found. http://oig.gsa.gov/allnews.cfm 02/16/2010 Companies Agree to Pay $4 Million to Settle Defective Bulletproof Vest Lawsuit On February 12, 2010, Lincoln Fabrics Ltd., a Canadian weaver of ballistic fabrics, and its American subsidiary, agreed to pay the United States $4 million to settle a lawsuit against Lincoln for violations of the False Claims Act in connection with their role in the weaving of Zylon fabric used in the manufacture and sale of defective Zylon bulletproof vests. Lincoln wove ballistic Zylon fabric for the body armor industry, and it was used in the manufacture of Zylon bulletproof vests sold by several GSA contractors including: Second Chance Body Armor Inc., First Choice Armor Inc. and Point Blank Body Armor Inc. These vests were purchased by the United States, and by various state, local, and/or tribal law enforcement agencies, which were partially reimbursed by the United States. It was alleged that the Zylon in these vests lost its ballistic capability quickly, especially when exposed to heat and humidity. It was also alleged that Lincoln was aware of the defective nature of the Zylon by December 2001, but it continued to sell Zylon for use in ballistic armor until August 2005, when the National Institute of Justice issued a report that Zylon degraded quickly in ballistic applications. In October 2009, the United States filed suit against Lincoln for violations of the False Claims Act and related claims. This settlement was a result of an ongoing investigation by the General Services Administration Office of the Inspector General, the Justice Department’s Civil Division, the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia, the Department of Homeland Security Office of Inspector General, the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration, the Defense Criminal Investigative Service, the U.S. Army Criminal Investigative Command, the Air Force Office of Special Investigations, the Department of Energy Office of the Inspector General, the U.S. Agency for International Development Office of the Inspector General and the Defense Contracting Audit Agency. Click here (http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2010/February/10-civ-136.html) for the DOJ article. 12/09/2009 Maker of Defective Bulletproof Vests Repays $6.75 Million for False Claims The United States has reached a $6.75 million settlement with Itochu Corp. of Japan and its American subsidiary, Itochu International Inc., to resolve claims under the False Claims Act in connection with the companies’ importation and sale of defective Zylon fiber used as the key ballistic material in bullet-proof vests purchased by the United States for federal, state, local and tribal law enforcement agencies, the Justice Department announced today. The Itochu companies imported the Zylon fiber on behalf of the Zylon manufacturer, Toyobo Co. Ltd. of Japan. The United States alleged that the Itochu companies were aware that the fiber degraded quickly over time and that the companies knew that this degradation rendered bullet-proof vests containing woven Zylon unfit for use. The government further alleged that, despite this knowledge, Itochu personnel actively participated in the marketing of the Zylon fiber and downplayed the extent of the degradation problem. "We will not tolerate companies that put the lives of law enforcement officers at risk by providing defective material for bullet-proof vests," said Tony West, Assistant Attorney General for the Justice Department’s Civil Division. "This agreement resolves our allegations that these defendants wasted taxpayers dollars by failing to address problematic vests even after they were aware of them." This settlement is part of a larger government investigation of the industry’s use of Zylon in body armor. As part of today’s agreement, Itochu has pledged its cooperation in the government’s ongoing investigation. The United States has previously settled with five other participants in the Zylon body armor industry for over $47 million. Additionally, the United States has pending lawsuits against Toyobo Co., Honeywell Inc., Lincoln Fabrics, Ltd., Second Chance Body Armor Inc., and First Choice Armor Inc. Several former executives of Second Chance and First Choice are also named in those suits. Assistant Attorney General West acknowledged the contributions of the many federal agencies assisting the government’s ongoing investigation of the Zylon body armor industry, including the Justice Department’s Civil Division; the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia; the General Services Administration, Office of the Inspector General; the Department of Homeland Security, Office of Inspector General; the Department of the Treasury’s Inspector General for Tax Administration; the Defense Criminal Investigative Service; the U.S. Army Criminal Investigative Command; the Air Force Office of Special Investigations; the Department of Energy, Office of the Inspector General; the U.S. Agency for International Development, Office of the Inspector General; the Defense Contracting Audit Agency; and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 01/26/2009 Canadian Company to Pay U.S. More Than $1 Million Related to Sale of Defective Bullet-Proof Vests Washington, D.C. - infoZine - Barrday Inc. and two related companies have agreed to pay the United States more than $1 million to resolve allegations that they violated the False Claims Act in connection with their role in the weaving of Zylon fabric used in the manufacture and sale of defective Zylon bullet-proof vests, the Justice Department announced today. Barrday, headquartered in Cambridge, Ontario, Canada, is a weaver of ballistic fabrics and designs and produces specialty industrial textiles. The United States alleged that Barrday’s woven Zylon fabric was used in the manufacture of bullet-proof vests sold by Second Chance Body Armor Inc., Point Blank Body Armor Inc. and Gator Hawk Armor Inc. These vests were purchased by the United States, and by various state, local, and/or tribal law enforcement agencies, which were partially reimbursed by a Justice Department program. The government alleged that the Zylon in these vests lost its ballistic capability quickly, especially when exposed to heat and humidity. Barrday was reportedly aware of the defective nature of the Zylon by at least December 2001, but continued to sell Zylon for use in ballistic armor until approximately 2003, when two police officers were shot through their Second Chance Zylon vests. In 2003, Barrday was the first weaver to permanently withdraw from the Zylon market. "When a supplier of a component part distributes its product with knowledge of latent defects, that company violates the False Claims Act" said Michael F. Hertz, the acting Assistant Attorney General for the Civil Division. "This settlement will help ensure that component suppliers are held responsible for materials that put our first-responders at risk." This settlement is part of a larger investigation of the body armor industry’s use of Zylon in body armor. As part of today’s agreement, Barrday has pledged its cooperation in the government’s on-going investigation. The United States previously has settled with four other participants in the Zylon body armor industry for over $46 million. Additionally, the government has pending lawsuits against Toyobo Co., Honeywell Inc., Second Chance Body Armor Inc. and four former Second Chance executives. Today’s settlement with Barrday was the result of an ongoing investigation by the Justice Department’s Civil Division, the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia, the General Services Administration Office of the Inspector General, the Department of Homeland Security Office of Inspector General, the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration, the Defense Criminal Investigative Service, the U.S. Army Criminal Investigative Command, the Air Force Office of Special Investigations, the Department of Energy Office of the Inspector General, the U.S. Agency for International Development Office of the Inspector General, and the Defense Contracting Audit Agency. INFOZINE(KANSAS CITY, MO) - January 24, 2009

I don't know exactly how Clarus, or those that own Clarus, were involved at Armor Holdings if they did own the company on paper before charges and fines were levied. But I find it distrubing enough in several ways to make a concerted effort to find out the details on the allegations.

May be they use to (heard that complaint on the previous Phantom line up) but the ones I have had, older blue Scarpa Frenzy and the newest Phanton Guide fits me pretty much like Sportiva sizing which directly relates to US sizing. In this case 45 Scarpa to 45 La Sportiva to a US 11.5 is a direct comparison and fit me the same..in general.

Sorry Sobo I'll be in Boise, Sat and Sunday. Good luck on the surgery!

Some fancy boots on that girl Great TR, thanks!

Early that morning on Coeur D'Alene Lake it was beatiful. Nice breeze and perfect for sailing the Hobie Cat. Weather can come up fast on the lake and the little boats really zip with one person on them. But hard to right by yourself if you header in a good blow. When the huge "thunder head" came rolling in from the west I hung out as long as I dared wanting to catch the wind before the storm...but strangley those winds never seem to get started so I headed in before the bulk of the incoming storm hit the lake. By the time I had stored the boat the ash was falling. By the time we started the hour drive back to Cd'A we knew what had happened at St. Helens and now required head lights to drive. It was pitch black by the time I got home. I always wondered what it did to the engine in my VW bus but I sold it a few months later and bought a new Toyota at a discount that had it's glass scored by ash. Didn't seemed to have hurt the Toyota. The next week got very weird in C'dA. It was a small quite town then. The stores that were open ran out of fresh food, with a good dint in the canned goods by weeek's end. Gas was in short supply in just a couple of days. The super fine ash covered everything. People wore sugical masks while they were out, but few ventured out. Roads were still choked with ash. Interesting look at how the populace handles a disaster. Weird and a little scary was my lasting impression. People became very insular and sullen during that first week. Glad it got better and not worse. A week later the sky dawned clear and bright, the clean up was well under way and the entire event seemed like a small inconvience. People were laughing again..which they hadn't been. I went back to work on two projects and sent them a couple of days later. The enfored rest had done me some good Two buddies watched it from the summit ridge of Stuart that morning after doing Ice Cliff. They were impressed. And had a scary trip trying to drive back to Spokane that night.

Thinking Iraq and Afganistan or even Bush/Cheney's past policies are the reason the USA is hated is a myoptic and naive version of the world. News flash...those that hate the USA, hate all of us, have for longer than you have been alive and will continue long after you are dead. They don't ask your political party while they are sawing off your head these days or a hundred years ago. But since you obviously are unable to get the point..the point is both parties and their respective leaders make bad decisions over time and people die because of it. A very few of those that do die may actually deserve it.

I vote who I think will be the best leader at the time and of the options available. Nixon- McGovern Carter- Ford Carter- Regan Reagan- Mondale Bush- Mondale Bush- Dukakis Clinton- Bush? Clinton- Dole? Bush- Gore? Bush or Kerry? McCain or Obama? Not a lot of choice imo and none with the biting intellect of Tvash or Palin thankfully. Carter is a good example of a honest and well respected man. As a President, sadly, he goes down in history as one of the worst. If you don't recongnise that the last 10 years have been a little trying on heads of state you're an idiot. Be a whole lot of you on the other 1/2 dead without a few draconia laws put in place and actions taken. Which is why we elect new Presidents and challenge draconia laws at the Supreme Court. But hey sheep are suppose to be stupid. Which is why there are sheep dogs to protect them. Best way to not get a "wanted dead or alive" poster printed with your face on it? Don't hang out with people who routinely kill other people. Some times in real life it is hard to separate the sheep from the sheep dogs or the sheep dogs from the wolves. Always people willing to kill and died for a cause on both sides. We all should be thankful that in our country the pendulum will swing both ways but it never gets far on either side for long.

Obviously you're no student of history. Which is why you missed the salient points most get in 8th grade history class. Your political dribble is that of an uneducated child. Try every President and Congress between 1776 and 1900, then Wilson, Roosevelt, Truman, Johnson, Nixon and Ford. Lincoln and Bush were light weights by comparison. Bush just seems oppressive because his political life and your dim and short term awareness of US politics happen to coincide. For a little light reading try a google search on: Indian Wars Time Table German American internment Italian American internment Japanese American internment The U.S.-Mexican War Manifest Destiny

Thankfully I was able to help vote Bush in and just as thankfully I helped vote him out. There are very few Constitutional scholars that can agree on the documents meaning in details so I would ease off the "trampled" statement. You may not like how "they" define its meaning, but that has been the way it has worked for 200 years.

If you are innocent what would be wrong with turning yourself in? Not the best climate to pull that off but better than a hell fire missile lighting your ass up without notice. Anwar al-Awlaki's is an American citizen and he could turn himself in at any American Embassy. They aren't going to shoot him on sight in that situation. If Faisal Shahzad, a naturalized American citizen from Pakistan, had killed several 1000 in Times Square a couple of weeks ago I doubt anyone would be crying about Anwar al-Awlaki's civil rights today. "Anwar al-Awlaki's has been the focus of intense scrutiny since he was linked through e-mails with Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, the Army psychiatrist accused of killing 13 people at Fort Hood, Tex., in November 2009 and then to Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, the Nigerian man charged with trying to blow up a Detroit-bound airliner on Dec. 25. He also had ties to two of the 9/11 hijackers although the nature of association remains unclear. In May 2010, Mr. Awlaki was mentioned by Faisal Shahzad, the Pakistani-American man accused of trying to detonate a car bomb in Times Square. Mr. Shahzad said he was inspired by the violent rhetoric of Mr. Awlaki, an American official said." Doesn't sound like there is any secret as to why the US wants Anwar al-Awlaki's dead.

You forgot the important part of the oath imo..as it relates to this conversation... "I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." If you are directly involved in trying to blow up Times Square you ARE not being targeted for what you say, but for what you do.

I've done all three aproaches and it really depends on the time of the year and what you are looking for on the trip. White river (4300') has some up and down getting over St Elmo. Fun traverse and an easy car issue. Carbon is the lowest start on the mtn iirc. 2000' at the start? It is long. You'll still have some car issue one way or the other depending on the descent. Gate to Mowich lake, if it is closed, is @ 3500' I think and the shortest walk even then. Makes a great traverse of the mtn down through Paradise. Hit Knapsack pass on the way up. The worse car hassles. Any way you do it the climb is great and worth the walk.

Mowich