Dane

The numbers I posted above and some of the info that was posted by others just didn't make a lot of sense to me. I work with steel every day in a different arena and still climb so I was interested in getting a better look at the real picture of ice tools and breakage of pics. I ended up talking with Bill Belcourt who is "the" guy for R&D at BD. He was also the guy who was head of design on their newest tools. I only know him by reputation. But with early ascents of the North Butt of Hunter and super quick ascent of Huntington among others and starting Grivel NA with Twight I know he's a guy who is going to tell it straight up...good or bad. As I expected "our" numbers don't tell the real story. First thing to clarify is the BD has been using the same pick attachment since '88. That is 20 years of picks out there that you can still bolt right on to a new Cobra. Anything...used enough.. will wear out..it's call fatique life or cycle life. Basically if it is steel, bend it enough and it will break. Oldest Quark pick is what, 8 years old? A good example is Paulb's broken pick posted above, a manufacturing date of around 10 years by pick design but easily bought only 5 years ago. It happens. All the "newer" BD picks have a 4 number production date stamped on them. The first number is the year of manufacture. The other 3 is day of year. Check the manufature dates on your picks. I have some that are old enough that there are no date codes. And I have some "new" B rated Titan picks I bought used made in '02. There is no easily way to tell the differenece between '02 and '07 beyound date stamp. Good news is there is no difference in manufacture between these '02 picks and the '08 pick. Bad news is there were minor changes through the years on tooth design, pick thickness and width. Just not since '02 Things changed a lot between 2000 and 2002...first years for some really hard mixed climbing by a big % of the ice climbing community. Picks (and tools) had to be redesigned because of it. More good news, failure rate of both BD and Grivel picks...'cuz Bill had the numbers from Grivel as well, is between .05 and .07%, which is extremely good. Most companies just want to get to a 1% failure rate and 5% is not unacceptable for others. It should be obvious by now that BD has a huge market share to show the numbers broken here. And they do. More tools out there...more picks out there for a 20 year period. Do the numbers you are bound to see some broken picks. Finally, the BD picks are currently lazer cut from 4340 Chromoly steel plate, then bevels ground specific to pick model, heat treated and then black oxided. No hot or cold forging involved. And to his credit Bill was willing to admit that the current Petzl pick was more durable in fatique testing. But he admitted that what the BD design intentionally gave up in durability it gains in performance..ie easier sticks, easier cleaning and better performance on mixed. The one thing we didn't talk about. I watched a dozen climbers queue at the last tier of Polar Circus this winter. Although I have climbed that route 4 times in the distant past I have never seen so many ice climbers out and about as we do today. Climbing in general is easier..because of better gear and better training or the most part. Ice climbing is even easier still for all the same reasons. We as climbers demand a lot. The tools are so much better today that they were even 10 years ago and you have no idea unless you were there when you go back 30. I wanted this info for me. I wanted to know what currently the "best" tool was. By one measure that means what is the most reliable. By another it is which tool has the features you most want for that particular climb. For another it is the one that makes WI5 the easiest for them. We see an ever increasing varity of tools. All of which offer different specific features. Only reason that happens is there are enough climbers with pocket books big enough to pay for R&D and buy what comes out every season. The vast majority in the current climbing scene want a tool that climbs water ice easily or is hell for stout for hard bolted mixed. A few dinosaurs like myself want a tool that will climb well every where and not break. Tough audience for any manufacture. Guess I 'll worry more about it when i break my first pic

These puppies have been hard to find for some time. Patagonia doesn't make them every year. If you know what they are and want one, Zappo.com had a few in both and men's LG and XL as of last night. As of today Patagonia.com and Patagonia in DT Seattle has them again. If you don't know what the R1 hoody is...it is an awesome piece of alpine climbing clothing for $130. Most give it rave reviews for everything from trail running to 8000m peaks. Hit the hot link below to learn more but I wouldn't wait long. http://www.psychovertical.com/?r1hoody

These puppies have been hard to find for some time. If you know what they are and want one, Zappo.com had a few in both and men's LG and XL as of last night. http://www.zappos.com/gs/patagonia-mens-r1andreg-hoody-black-activewear-1.shtml If you don't know what the hoody is...it is an awesome piece of alpine climbing clothing. Hit the hot link below to learn more but I wouldn't wait long. http://www.psychovertical.com/?r1hoody

Thanks, got a source you can quote for your "cold forging" comments at BD? Looking at the production dates is interesting. Glad Simond was brought up. I have a Chacal and Barracuda that has done a bunch of Canadian, Alaskan and NW ice and still on the original picks. A bit worn but still usable. If I counted correctly here is the current score just from this post. Black Diamond 39 broken Simond 8 broken Grivel 7 broken Petzl 1 broken (edited for clarity)

Mind citing a source for your info on Petzl? The difference in grain structure and strength is dramatic between cold "forged" and actualy hot forged steel. The same reason you don't see quality knives made by cold forging. A "cold forged" knife would be simply ground from "bar stock". Hot forged picks can be made thinner (which is the grain structure adding strength) and still resist bending (which is the heat treat). more here: http://www.forging.org/facts/faq9.htm Ya, I bet they say that alot around the warrenty shop at BD Add mixed climbing and you are easily way past 300#. If the accounts are correct there is a obvious stress riser on the pick. I haven't posted my 2nd hand info on recent broken picks. I'll add up what has been posted later. May be it isn't obvious but I seem to see a pattern Grivel has 1 BD has 10 Petzl 0

I've seen them filed past recognition and still working but never broken. Anyone ever seen a broken a Petzl/Charlet Moser pick?

Chrome moly steel can be had in many forms. It is not all the same. The biggest differences however in picks is the use of CNC plate cutting techniques on the chrome moly and then heat treated to spec or chrome moly hot forgings, heat treated to spec and then hand finished. This is a good short course in steel and manufacturing. http://www.grivelnorthamerica.com/technology.php?gid=1 Easy to guess the one company of the top three tool makers who doesn't use forged picks. There is a small amount of difference in the stress risers incorporated into each company's pick by tooth design. The two design/manufacturing do add up.

In the years I've ice climbed I have to admit I have never broken a pick. My wife tells me I am a gentle guy I have however broken tools. Snapped a head off one while soloing grade 4 with no second tool. Which scared the shit out of me. Bent and straightened more picks than I care to count all the way back to Chouinard Piolets, Terrodactyls and Roosters. More recently I have done the same on modern Grivel and Petzl tools while using our other tools as the hammer and anvil. I had become satisfied with carrying a full size spare tool on everything but the "easiest" road side crags, until this winter anyway. Hadn't climbed seriously in a while and never thought to bother with a spare, third matching tool...too much money. (I'd like a "matching" tool these days since there are so many options.) But wanting to climb hard again I once more started soloing, wanting to get my chit squared away and that thought (carrying a spare did come up) So I know my personal experience and that of the guys I have discussed the topic with. Let's talk about what tools/picks you have actually seen broken or broken yourself? Stories only if the source was truly credible to you Secondly, for anyone who has broken a pick...could you or did you "save" it by reshaping the shorter pick with a file. My thought is most broken picks snap one or two teeth in and could be reshaped easily in route and reused on even difficult ice. Thoughts? Experiences? And thanks!

I've used mine a couple of times now. Ventilation is a good thing....the designers and owner of the company even stresses about it in person. I have timed boils...amazingly fast. No durability issues yet but I have been careful with mine to this point. I'll know more after the first "hard knock" trip. First stove I have used that makes me think you can actually stay hydrated on an alpine climb if you have snow around. For my own use every bit the stove an XGK is. Also very good on fuel consumption if you heat water and then turn it off. You'll use and waste a lot of fuel if you leave in on since there is virtually no control between off and full on. Annoying there is no lighter attached. (forgot) There is a hanging kit coming but easy enough to make...and you should take the time to compared to a Jetboil for melting water. Bigger pot and fast boil time on the MSR.

If you decide it is something you want to do send me a PM so I don't miss a post here.

Just more fyi. The standard picks on the Cobra is pretty thin but still not as thin as the standard pick on a Quark, too lazy to mic them again to be specific. Quark pick is truely forged the BD isn't. (I work with forged parts on a daily basis so take that FWIW) But forged picks really are a better part for an ice tool. My limited experience is the Quark drives easier. (thinner pick.. in cold hard ice) Typical ice not a lot of difference between the two besides balance. BD picks have a serious habit of breaking at inopportune times. One guy in Canmore has a basket of 8 broken picks I was told. Josh broke two on the lower part of GC Couloir this winter. With a quiver of tools for me to choose from, Chad pointed out what is important to me on some routes, "changing picks on the BD tools is a dream compared to the Quarks." Changing picks isn't a big deal at a road side attraction but gets a little troublesome off the road and on longer alpine routes. Climbing hard, long, alpine routes requires 1 of 3 plans: Don't break or drop anything...if you do you share what is left. You can carring an extra tool or tools. Or you carry extra picks and know you can change them on route. All the tools we are discussing climb very well with just a bit of difference in head balance and handle sizes. Everything else being pretty equal the deciding factors for me are how easily umbilicals tie/untie, how durable the pics are and most importantly how far off the road I'll be.

This might put our discussion of modern mixed tools on hard alpine routes into perspective. http://www.grivelnorthamerica.com/headlines.php?id=50 "Steve with his trusty Quantum Monsters on Mount Alberta"

Thanks I hadn't seen it either. Although the Canmore rumor was House and Anderson was there just for Alberta. Amazing winter season (even if this one was just out) Temple a couple of times, Chephren, Andromeda, GC on Kitchner and Alberta. A winter ascent of Alberta was on several tick lists. Next one will likely be Twin in winter. Man talk about some big steps up in the last couple of years...wow! Glad they sounded sorta like normal mortals in the write up.....well sorta anyway Some pretty amazing climbing done in cold, harsh conditions. even with the "new" hut.

new early fall of '07

I am a 45 in the Batura (runs bigger than the Nepals more like a Trango) and a very tight 45 in the Nepal Evo. 46 in the Spantik with a liner and a boot sox. 45.5 was too short. Buddy is a 45.5 in the Trango extreme (which runs large) and a 46.5 in the Spantik. A option if you really want to square away sizing order what you think will fit add one size + and - from Zappos and return what doesn't fit, free shipping both ways and quick refund back to your CC.

pm sent

Great TR, thanks!

Ptarmigan Ridge in late Sept or Oct should fill the desire to play on alpine ice

Guess I missed it. I have mtn boots (which will cover the full range of alpine/ice climbing) and I have mountaineering boots that will never see ice climbing but will see a pair of lwt crampons for glacier slogs. I fit them all the same. Doesn't matter if the boot is for WI5, 5.10 rock, M6 or a Rainier slog. The most important thing for me about fitting a pair of boots is comfort walking in and out of the climbs. Nothing that will make a trip more unpleasant than too short of boot. Heel lift can be fixed but better yet find a pair of boot that will be long enough to keep you toe off the front and locks the heel down. Since you don't need a stiff technical boot, there are lots of options out there for you to choose from. Try a bunch of them on.

$300 and then you can pick them up with the leashes.

As of today there is still a good 2 feet of snow on the bridge.

Looked pretty much the same yesterday but stuff down low is decent if you are in the sun.

Grade II 5.7. 500 feet of climbing. 4 or 5 hrs round trip should do it. Three 150' dbl rope rappels to get off. I'd see if the party behind you wants to join ropes for the rappel. Problem solved. If not climb on a single and have the leader haul the lwt second rope off his haul loop. If there are any problems (I doubt there would be) the second can clear the rope as he climbs. Drink up before you take off. Not much more than a climb of Castle rock starting at the the bottom on Fault/Catapault. And the cracks @ DT are more fun

pm sent

This winter I had a Canadian guide telling me about a 200 footer that went straight onto a ice screw anchor. So stunned I forgot to get the rest of the details. But no one died. Personally? Held a 150 footer that anyone can repeat on Liberty Bell. From the top of the slab down to the anchors at the end of the crack system. Only injury was a scuffed up back coming over the roof that got a little stiff and sore on my partner. Held that one on a body belay btw. Taken? 75 footer of air off an 90' .11b. Inattentive belayer and taking in some slack helped get in the distance. That one was on a 2" swami belt with no ill effects.