RuMR

where at index???

ahhh...i wouldn't call it cruisin'...scared outta my brain and i couldn't walk straight for a couple of days...

hahahaha the only one on your list that i recognize is pipeline...

ummm...where is that?

Let's hear the list...

man, people getting possesive of pebbles and first ascents of pebbles? Now that's funny

dave page does not hold a candle to Ramuta...if you want it done right, done fast and done for a decent price, give them to Ramuta

you are too funny...no, i will continue to bait you IN THIS THREAD so we can destroy it together...

anytime you wanna give me a lesson on trad climbing, you have at it, big boy...

dear dru... I make a statement slightly off topic and you, of all people, rip me about straying from the topic? YOU WHO SPRAY ON EVERY POSSIBLE THREAD??? Don't lecture me...

I'm not...so this argument is M O O T v

i'm not talking about retrobolting...

what part of ESTABLISHING routes didn't you get? I never said one way or the other about retrobolting...

well...let's hear them...what are they? The ones i know of are heinous (which had chipped rp placements to start with), and karate wall...what are the others???

"If the majority of climbers do not wish to encounter plastic holds and bolted cracks, this needs to be respected in a shared space. " This is the real crux of the issue...do you know the exact ratio of preference to non preference? YOU DON'T and neither DO I... And, for me, it does vary with the place...i got no problems with the way little si was developed, but would hate to see the same tactics applied to the mountains or yosemite, or indian creek...Why can't there be a split in terms of areas?? Why does everything have to follow the traditional methods...shit, if that was the case everything would be pin protected... I think its assinine to flat state that only ONE APPROVED METHOD exists for establishing routes...its shortsighted at best and beach-nazi at the worst...there is room enough to have both methods coexisting...

sounds like tomclancy at his finest...scary shit if its for real...

ahhh...you don't have to ...i was just having a little fun witcha...

Very true...adequate gear is protection as much as a bolt is... as i said before, i've never climbed in spokane, so i don't know what is going on there...i'm only commenting based on what i've read as marty's position on this board and the fact that i have some pretty good friends that climbed w/ Marty when they were living in spokane...

oh...you're a funny one...

Hey Dru...isn't their something happening in the world of squids to report on?? Something over in sprayland?? TA TA

to me it just seems silly to sink a ton of $$ into developing a route (it costs a fair bit to install a sport route...usually more than $75) and still require a few sundry pieces...to each their own... and Ted...Marty replaced a red sling w/ a hold, that was being used to A0 the move...which is more visible?? I know the counter point to that though, that being that the sling can always be removed...big deal...and also, i know MANY routes that were chipped into harder routes than what they would have been before...ie big holds were knocked off, or sanded into slippery non positive holds...how does that fit into your equation?? My point about "respect", Slothtrop, involved hardcore climbers putting up runout routes that are waaaay below their ultimate ability...its stupid when someone requires more protection at THEIR OWN LEVEL but will not afford a less talented climber the same luxury at their respective level...Marty is probably capable of soloing many of those bolt jobs...trust me, he didn't retro those for himself... Ted, I think you are right that we are all complex and do sometimes contradictory things...Isn't that the magic of climbing??? You can go out and get a kick ass workout in a stimulating environment OR you can go scare yourself silly in a an adventure to remember when you are an old doddering man, OR you can even have a combination of those two...

Ted...you make interesting points, very interesting...however you are missing the main point of what happened at dishman (i'm guessing as i live in seattle, but know many of the climbers there)... THe routes were altered for convenience, not to reduce their difficulty...Marty never implied that he and his crew were trying to do the "last great problem"...hell, the routes are .11+ to 12-...hardly cutting edge, whether headpointed, traditionally protected, soloed or clipped up...Marty and crew were trying to make wider use of a limited crag and make it availabel for a wider spectrum of urban climber...They were not making any kind of grandiose statement like you are implying... FWIW, there are several extremely hard bolted projects of Marty's that he's pretty much said "have at it" to any one that can actually go out and do them, instead of chipping them to something that he could redpoint quickly...that kind of goes against your logic, doesn't it??

Much of Marty's position is making some of the routes accessible to moderate climbers...wouldn't that be a form of "respect"????