RuMR

I would love for all of you, ahem as bob rogoz would eloquently put it, fucking clownpunchers would get on a plane, fly to ceuse or buoux or arco or chateau vert or the verdon...and go climb a few of these bolted wuss routes and then define the french term "engaging" for me... If its a continuous 5.13 crack (like phoenix or trix r 4 kids) it can be hella safer than some limestone routes...any of you fucks ever get a little nervous on 5.12 technical face climbing on greasy shitty holds after climbing harder stuff down lower, pumped out of your mind with 20 feet of air down to the bolt below you and another 15 feet to go? Ahhh that's right, you are all master trad daddies and that is old hat for you... Looks like a lot of talking out of people's asses....the bolting in ceuse/buoux/arco/siurana is hardly what i would call extravagant... And don't bring up ex 38 or some of the other bolt jobbies around here...i agree that they are generally atrocious w/ the amount of bolts on a line...

I would like to climb 5.14......but I don't want to spend the time to get there....hence I know I will never get there.... but some folks do want to eventually get to that grade...is it any more necessarily right to impose YOUR style and its corresponding limitations on them as it for them to impose their's on you?

if you can't climb 5.9 then you CAN'T climb 5.10! What does mode of protection have to do with it? Ummm. Forgive me for speaking generally but traditionally, the harder routes requires more competence to place protection becuase those routes have less places to place pro. Mode of protection means those more competent can place pro in the more difficult places. Those less competent rely on bolts. again this is bullshit some of the time....i can walk over RIGHT NOW to citypark (5.13c) and seige/hangdog/whine/ etc. up it in complete and utter safety w/ an absolute bomber nut every 1.5 feet...so much for bolts being the only mechanism to climb in shitty style...

hmmmm...cocoa puff... gotta agree that some places should be left as trad climbing...i'm just saying that its assinine to remove all sportclimbing and bolts, just like its assinine to bolt everything in sight...to me that is just one more flavor to sample...

So on bolts it's hang-dogging, but on gear it's OK? But isn't that aid climbing? No, wait, aid climbing has bolts... Probably there is the odd person that bolts a line just to "hangdog" up it, but this is hardly a strong enough point to form an entire ethos. I sense this is not about mode of protection, but rather a form of the same old self-righteous anti-sport-climbing nonsense.

that's why i said "if" you want to stay where you are at and are ok w/ a snail's pace of development...personally, that's not ok for me...

Then it's okay if I go spray-paint "j_b is a wad" on rocks where it's unlikely that many people will see it very often? its cool only if you leave your mom's phone #!

I also should not climb a 5.10 route if I can't climb 5.9 I gotta earn to be a 5.10 climber and above, that means being confident on 5.9. and sequential grades. again your logic is totally flawed... Here's an example...let's say that you want to learn to climb steep, overhanging and roofed rock...and i'm not talking about the "roofed" routes we have in the PNW, but sustained more than 2 body length roof climbing that you can't just reach over and mantle through....well, i've got news for you, the routes usually don't start until about 5.11...so you can stay in 5.9suck land forever and totally dial that down, then you can go and dial down 5.10 tech face and you're still gonna get shut down completely on steep rock...simply cuz you don't know what the fuck you are doing... We can extrapolate that to something like, oh i don't know, a nice slick flaring offwidth...guess what, you can cheat your ass off on most 5.9 and under offwidth and not learn how to climb them...the reason why is because an offwidth at 5.9 and under generally has enough crap inside it and on the neighboring face that you really aren't climbing it in true "offwidth" style...so you're gonna get shut down and flail and hangdog or you are never going to progress...sorry this is the real world and if you don't train specifically, it aint gonna happen... you think 5.14 climbers didn't bump their grades by working their asses off, training, hangdogging routes, working stuff into the ground AND onsighting all at the same time? Guess again...

my personal opinion is that bolts have huge visible impacts only for climbers...non climbers rarely notice bolts... also, if you stick with this mantra "If I cannot climb it under my own abilities, then I should not climb it", you will never ever progress in your abilities...and if you do then it will be at a snail's pace...this may be fine for you but not acceptable for others... Personally, i think its hypocritical and selfish for topnotch climbers to bolt heavily at their limit yet put up routes much under their limit that are sparsely protected and then claim first ascensionist's rights... FWIW i have put up several routes on the east coast in the late 80's that are 5.11 r/x and when contacted by others if it was ok to retro protect them, said ok...basically the routes were drifting into obscurity...

This is what bugs me about the whole bolting debate, labeled under the guise of "environmental impact". The thing about rocks is that they're already dead. So "defacing" them by placing bolts is the equivalent of stirring around a bunch of gravel. It is an aesthetic impact, which may be a potentially worthwile issue, but to call it an environmental impact, on the scale of destroying habitat, killing trees/birds/soil microorganisms etc., or pouring your engine oil into Lake Washington is overstating the case big time. Yes, there are many environmental impacts associated with rock climbing that are well-documented. Gardening cracks around here (whether done on the FA or over the years by subsequent climbers - it doesn't make a difference) ranks pretty high on the list, as does trampling ledges (nesting habitat), scrubbing faces (lichen, moss, often takes hundreds of years for them to establish, more in desert areas), and building approach trails. Simply increasing the number of people in an area, with their noise, piss, and smells, will keep a whole bunch of "wilderness-requiring" organisms well at bay (grizzlies, most weasels, etc.). So as for bolts, they are the symptom not the cause. If bolting a route brings crowds (which it certainly can), then obviously it will have a true environmental (ecological) impact. But if the area is already popular without said bolts, there will be no change whatsoever other than aesthetics (like DDD). You can argue the case on aesthetics alone, but that is only a the smallest part of what environmental impact is all about. A good example of what I'm getting at - Burgers and Fries (Squamish, trad cragging/toproping mecca) and the Substation/Write-off rock (Exit 38, sport cragging/toproping mecca) are basically equivalent in terms of environmental impact from climbers (although there are more trees alive at X38). The fact that there are tons of bolts at X38 and not at B&F doesn't change a thing other than from the point of view of aesthetics.

Stefan...you are exposing yourself...that's PeterCroft...i think he may know a thing or two about placing gear...maybe, maybe not... Bob has hit this on the head...go fucking climb something...and your theory about only toproping some stuff is great in theory and shitty in practice...you've obviously have never climbed on really really steep terrain...its IMPOSSIBLE to toprope.... THis is a fucking stupid thread...don't POWER bolt in designated wilderness because its illegal...otherwise, have at it...

and why is knotted better to rap off of? cuz you're gonna leave it? that's fine then, get some sacrificial stuff... and sporto? what is that for?

don't do that...buy slings and double them up...knotted crap is a pain...sorry...a really really really expensive sewn sling is what, 7 or 8 bucks? they last forever...

...please wipe dripping sarcasm off of your forehead dru...

but but but all of my cc.com friends tell me that the euros are all bolt happy wussies that wouldn't know what to do w/ a cam or a nut to save their souls

psssssha over rated...that would be a nice stiff index 10d/11a...hahahaha

i don't think its "millions"...

ummm...how do you know what she can afford??

Very good advice...yeah, tri cams are cool, but i'd just stick w/ about what he said...more often than not cams and nuts are it...and bag the inexpensive route...you'll wind up buying the stuff you want later anyway...

my point was that you have no point by using harding as an example...dumbass

hmmmm...looks like cobra...hmmmm

but what do you wanna bet he'd have used one if it was available? My grandpap hiked uphill both directions in freezing snow concurrent w/ scorching temps through arctic jungles just to get to the mailbox...yup...those were the days...

There is no arguing that it changes the character of the area if a sport route is introduced. No comment on bad or good...

I'm not trying to dogpile you, but this is bullshit...i recognize that this is a private site, hence you folks in control can do anything your, hmmm lilly white asses, feel like...BUT, what has separated this site from other dry mundane climbing centered sites is the lively spray and discussions going on...part of which is brought on by antagonistic behavior. believe me, i frequent other boards as well, but this is the only one i participate in. Now, if you (the collective moderators) don't give some kind of explanation as to what got someone banned, you run the risk of coming across as heavy handed and will wind up crushing the "spirit" of this site. That is fine, its your perogative and your site...go ahead and take your football and go home with it... YOU ALL KNOW I DISAGREE W/ 90% of MERV'S BS, but i don't think he should be banned for what i saw. Also, as an aside, the reasons you put up are fair enough...you don't need to go into a super level of detail...

what are you worried about?? Aren't you only 24???