Crackbolter

Quoted from climbing magazine #213 June 2002 "Sporting Life(message board)" by Matt Samet "Yet, there is a downside: it's now possible to slander the hell out of each other without ever meeting face to face. This is especially true of message boards, ostensibly repositories of useful Beta, like where to go bouldering on a snowy day or directions to the hot new crag. Sadly, these message boards have evolved in to a receptacle for quips, jibes, insults, spray and flat out attacks, posted by net geeks hiding behind the cloak of anonymity or a trumped up alias." Sad, sad, sad but true.

sk--- I don't know you but, never say never.

I like the keynote of SIMPLICITY. Here is another... To put yourself into a situation where a mistake cannot necessarily be recouped, where the life you lose may be your own, clears the head wonderfully. It puts domestic problems back into proportion and adds an element of seriousness to your drab, routine life. Perhaps this is one reason why climbing has become increasingly hard as society has become increasingly, disproportionately, coddling. -A. Alvarez

It does not matter how slow you go, as long as you don't stop. - Confucius

quote: Originally posted by thelawgoddess: quote:BUT I HAVE ONE QUESTION? HOW DOES ONE NOT PHOTOGRAPH WELL?? DOES THE CAMERA BREAK?? I HAVE HEARD THIS BEFORE, BUT NEVER INQUIRED TO WHAT IT ACTUALLY MEANT. geez; i hope i'm not *that* ugly!!! it basically means that the subject either looks better or markedly different in person. (my cat has the same problem - he looks like hell in pictures, but up close and personal he's just a big ball of fur.) personally, i just don't like pictures. of myself, i mean. except for the one in my passport. [/QB] She must be brilliant. Although, I do have rules about women with cats. They never seem to leave the house. Perhaps she climbs hard and can school us all? Man that would be cool. I only know a few but they are all cool cats.

The rules of the game must be constantly updated to keep up with the expanding technology. Otherwise we overkill the classic climbs and delude ourselves into thinking we are better climbers than the pioneers. Yvon Chouinard

quote: Originally posted by Cobra: You can clearly see April Fools Towee behind it. Your argument is dumb. Everyone should climb there it is safe you just dont want the "Masses there". My argument is very dumb, you are right. Which direction it is facing is very irrelevant. Your arguement was equally as dumb, neither of us will win this one but I must say, you are my favorite poster. These battles are entertaining and fulfilling. Our origional debate is completely, and utterly irrelevant because there was no opinion, just bickering and thrashing. If you think I should be kicked off this board then so be it. Kick me off. I have no qualms over that. I will find other ways to entertain me when times are slow at work. I have a guitar and a mandolin, MP3's galore and people to talk climbing ethics with until I am blue in the face. I am sorry if everyone is sick of this conversation so I will find another topic now. Live long and procreate!

Which direction is SCW facing? Which direction is PG facing?

I shouldn't open my mouth abou this but, this is what I saw: "Hike across the bridge towards snow creek wall. Cross drainage. At first switchback cut right and across Snow Creek. Lots of downed trees. Gain faint trail heading up and left. Follow cairns to the white looking rock on the back side of snow creek wall.." It ain't the first switchback and it ain't behind the Snow Creek wall. Also, it ain't safe up there right now, we almost got bombarded by trees from a windstorm. We had big, massive trees falling down everywhere and we still climbed there. Fortunately we were protected from the trees while climbing but I thought I was gonna die! I don't want any one else thinkin that they are gonna die either. Shouldn't we try to preserve these crags until things are fixed up more? Is this website helping things or hurting things? Here is the big question, was I helping or hurting things? Be honest, I don't try to instigate these kind of things unless I have selfish enough reasons.

NO CHOPPING MY STEMS! I HATE SMOKING ON LEAD! i ALSO HATE USING NATURAL GEAR LIKE LEAVES AND PAPER! Oh I thought of another thing I like to carry, I made a 3 ounce pillow out of 800 fill down and .8 ounce nylon for my wussy head. It is nice to hug a pillow out climbing. It beats hugging my smelly partner! (Unless she is hot, then it is a required spooning event)

Take a half lliter MSR Fuel bottle, drill a 3/8" hole at a 45 degree angle. Go to your local head shop, buy the glass stem and sleeve kit. Also, get the rubber gasket to fit the 3/8" hole. Insert sleeve. Insert stem. Fill with snow/ ice/ water. Insert tobacco(whacky variety). Obtain flamage and bubble, bubble, bubble. Cough, cough, cough, cough, cough, cough. Buzzzzzzzzz. It makes the trip enjoyable. (Not like I do that or anything.) I also carry the tibetan variety prayer flags for aesthetics and support.

I am very pleased with the results of this discussion... This is what I gather: It seems that there are two groups of people that we are dealing with. The one side likes the use of bolts for safety and convenience and is not overly concerned with how many bolts are placed as long as the bolter knows what he/she is doing. Luckily for us, most F/A folks know what they are doing. They recieve much scrutiny when they are starting their career as a F/A. They also don't seem to care too much when someone who is not a F/A gives them scrutiny because typicially they want someone experienced to give them criticism. The other side are like republicans, they just want everyone to stick their nose into it and to chop bolts for their own likings, not because there is a consensus on how the route was drilled. These people want the F/A's to be regulated on how they put up a route by people who have never drilled into rock or who have no idea what is involve in putting up a route. They don't consider the countless hours it took them to mark the route and scrub the line and the thought that is involved in putting in a bolt where the crack will not hold gear very well but might take a piton (which is just a detrimental as a bolt). So my opinion is to remove all the hardware and make everyone climb what is naturally protectable like Fred Becky pioneered. I would be happy with that because it would divide the line between the bold, the not so bold and the crazy. Unfortunately, what I want will never happen so I have to put up with jackasses chopping bolts and making the situation worse. Maybe we should have stronger regulation in our wilderness areas (just keep the gas and electricity for our stoves and headlamps). What about designated non wilderness areas? Is it still okay to drill the shit out of everything and then have choppers chop the unnecessary bolts? So Asshole Gaper has a point, there are prople who bolt too much (L.W.) but not very many. And hopefully the folks that frollick in the wilderness areas will keep an eye out for those folks and give them the boot when we see them screwing things up. Most of the new bolters are drilling bolts for the safety other people, not as much for themselves. Look back when the first drillers were drilling. Was there any rhyme or reason? My guess is that there is more now than there ever was. Just more folks climbing and more folks drilling. Enough talk, I am finished with this subject. Thanks for the responses and opinions. Keep on exploring!

By your name given Gaper, at the least, you admit to opening you big mouth plentiful. I will digress again and wait until we meet. As for the rest of our fellow climbers, please further this discussion. I will value your opinion, I promise.

Jerome, Do you bend your knees? I thought you flipped a switch! You liar, you just act like an alpine skiier and really you are a tele freak! Okay, no boom boom tonight! At least, not until you put those alpine planks back on.

If you bolt a bong I will make a rock and ice greenhouse to grow the purply hairy stanky sticky doob.

"Remember when sex was safe and climbing was dangerous?" Don't tell me that you will always climb routes within your on-sight ability. You slowly progress through the numbers and letters. Many people did this with bolted lines at Vantage and North Bend and Leavenworth and top roped the cracks. This is normal play around here. Some of us were lucky enough to have a ropegun partner to climb with in the early days of our career. This meant that I had to stop and claen what he plugged in or clipped. It helped me move through the grades faster than most people. Some people have to work with partners at their own level and progress slower. This is a slow progress. It seems that there is more appeal to climb with natural protection than with bolts. It is worthwhile to support the environmentalist view and just ban all bolting so we can start this whole thing all over again or should we leave the ethics of the wilderness to the individual communities?

"but it is OUR OWN RESPONSIBILTY to make sure that we are as safe as possible and i believe this is acheived through personal enrichment. at the same time it is the responsibilty for everyone to protect the resources that we all love and enjoy.....bolting does neither of these two things......" Sorry, this does not mean anything if I am the party who happens to be in the vacinity and is responsible for some form of aid if your party gets hurt. I don't like blood and I avoid epic disasters caused by other people. This may be selfish but hey...aren't we all! Bolts simply make things safe.

quote: Originally posted by Gaper_#1: This is Gaper_#1, I think Crackbolter is simply looking for sympathetic people here to justify his bolting ideas publicly. That is poor judgement and he knows what is right and wrong. I never said anything about Dana's arch Crackbolter. Also you never responded to mine. Avoding subjects eh! Gaper_#1 Has spoken. Hmmmm... First of all, if I wanted sympathy I would not be looking toward climbers. What are my bolting ideas? I am not sure I understand...I'm kinda SLOE. I honestly don't know what is right. I just do it because I CAN without too much grief. If word has it that I don't bolt then you know who I am and what my ethics are? What am I suppose to respond to now? What subjects am I avioding? I want opinions and it looks like I came to the right place! - - and be marry. R-eal A-ass Y-o!

So far so good. Here is some opinion: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Yes, they are convenience bolts - I agree, and I still support them." I do not agree with convenience bolts. Bolts should be used to conserve cracks. A good example of convenience bolts are definately the ones on Ingalls. I am wondering what would be better, conserve the rock or conserve the mountaineer folks? I guess I wouldn't think twice if I had to pass them climbing up a mountain and now adays I don't even ask, I just pass. I would rather conserve the rock. Another good example of convenience bolts are on Princely Amitions. Nice 3/8" with stout chains. Not necessary to say the least. There is a sweet platform to belay from and a nice crack that would openly take a #3 metolious (which used to have a R.R. spike we had to tie off) You could also sling that freestanding pillar and be amply protected. "Please read the recently referenced ethical discussions over routes at Smith Rock, where creating holds is in the middle of the debate. " Now Smith rock is a great example of overbolting but I will admit that I kind of like it in that Basalt mud. I suck at placing gear in those cracks and am always sketch moving past it. I usually stick to 5.10 trad or easier so I never have to test if that stuff actually holds. What about Vantage? Is there a place for bolts there? Remember the Sunshine wall. Skip em or clip em. A nice crack just an arms length from that route and more bolts on that one route than on the I-90 bridge! Pope said: "As an aside, have any of ya'll ever been on bloody fingers - 10A in the city of rocks, twenty feet to the right is a beautiful piece of face climbing put up by Jeff Lowe called New Toy. total of two bolts in 80 feet. Nobody climbs it - nobody, and why - it is too damn dangerous and a fall will kill ya, so I ask - has the first ascensionist done the climbing world justice - what gives him the right to dictate the "off limits - unless you have a death wish" mentality? Unfair and sad - on public land and a scarce resource as it is - and totally selfish IMHO - but who am I to say it...." I think Pope has the best point. Do we want the climbing community to have this amount of commitment? I personally have climbed enough routes to know that at least more than once i've been 20, 30,40 or even as much as 50 feet off the ground and could have easily had a groundfall that was fatal. Or what about on routes where there are slabs to fall on. Just low enough angle and high enough to be fatal. (Rogers Corner? You could flick that rusty spinner at the top of the slab and it would spin all day!) Gaper said: "You know bolting cracks is bad and the bolts will be removed. " Lets look at Index again, Dana's arch ring a bell? Why was it bolted? I think the answer lies deep in this ethical debate. To conserve the crack. So pitons are never used again. Is it okay to use pitons to protect cracks that can not be protected by removable/conventional gear? Are bolts replacing pitons yet still degrading rock? I haven't yet established an opinion. I do know that I sure like just clipping draws to fixed anchors but the look lousy in a natural setting. Please, lets discuss this further.

I am going to stir it up some more. Work is slow today and I am bored. Please entertain me. Who thinks that it is not okay to drill into fresh virgin granite void of cracks? This is a serious discussion so if you give me a B.S. answer I will be very angry and I will have to open a can of whoopass on you. Also, Is it okay to drink and climb? Is it okay to puff on the kind green bud with lots of purply hairs and cough for ten minutes and then climb gripped? I would like to hear REAL answers not just some jubberish! Behave!

[ 08-21-2002, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Crackbolter ]

[ 08-21-2002, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Crackbolter ]

You suck! Come climbing in Veavengirth! Bolt so me cracks and and sketch and and rattle and and pop and and wake up and and hike hungover like me!

[ 08-21-2002, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Crackbolter ]

[ 08-21-2002, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Crackbolter ]