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he will kill the puppy. bad idea i think so too but thats kinda the point not that i would want a puppy to die, but i in my profassional oppinion feel that what Kevbone needs is a really good look at his authentic self. what he needs to ask himself is if he is projecting to others the person he believes himself to be? i think he is not, and i think that he needs to learn a lesson about the dynamic of the group and how to comunicate well with others.

no thats a terrible idea. lets not get crazy here i want kevbone to go coocoo not some poor kid

i think it would help him learn some cc.com ethics and responsablity. it's kinda like buying a crappy kid a puppy. either he will rise to the occasion and handle the situation or he will not and kill the puppy and become and ax murderer.

nobody hates you :-) awwwwww <3

YAY!!! heaven doesn't want me and hell is afraid i am going to take over

can't we all go back to hating Kevbone instead of eachother?

luckily so do i

it is statements like this that help me to understand why despite all americans do to "help" other countries, that we are the most hated country on the planet. we think we are so much better and smarter and have i all figured out. i think it is a great idea to go and climb with people who want to and to teach them and maybe even help them set up a business if you you want to. but do you have to be so condesending about it? muslim women have been surviving against all odds for centeries before there was such a thing as the USA. and likely they are stronger, more fit, and spritualy more powerful than any of us could hope to be. its like californication to the next level. So, if the guides participating in this project were from Canada, or Europe, would this project be less controversial? You're right, America is hated over seas. Because we wage war on innocent countries and kill thousands of people for our own selfish political agenda and hide it under a guise of "bringing democracy to oppressed nations". I think comparing this to this project is a bit of a stretch. The guides going there are going to teach whoever wants to learn, they are not forcing anything on anyone. i don't think the program is contraversal at all. i think most people support sending money suppies and ourselves at times to help people who we consider less fortunate than we are. for the record, i was taught to climb by a woman, i like to climb with my women friends who climb and i really do think guides going any where to spread the good word of climbing to whoever wants it is a good idea. I also think that often times we blindly support what seems to be a great idea with out taking a moment to look at things from perhaps a different percpective. so i asked my self, what doesn't jive for me hear? p.s. i love how easy it is to stir shit up just by not agreeing with the status quoe. interesting conversation. I will be interested in hearing about the project on it's completion. I hope they bother to follow up with the women they help over the next 20 or 30 years.

it is statements like this that help me to understand why despite all americans do to "help" other countries, that we are the most hated country on the planet. we think we are so much better and smarter and have i all figured out. i think it is a great idea to go and climb with people who want to and to teach them and maybe even help them set up a business if you you want to. but do you have to be so condesending about it? muslim women have been surviving against all odds for centeries before there was such a thing as the USA. and likely they are stronger, more fit, and spritualy more powerful than any of us could hope to be. its like californication to the next level.

personaly i don't know either, and i hesitate to be in favor of any program where i don't know what the impact will be or how people will be effected.

it's got a good beat and i can dance to it!

Normally I would agree with this statement but not in the case of a Muslim country. In other places, where women are already considered equals, of course this would be true. But in places where women can be arrested for wearing brightly colored scarves, they need to have the chance to shine on their own. I think this sounds like an amazing opportunity, and an excellent cause. In all muslim countries women are standing up for their basic human rights, and the world should be supportive. i thought that was Afaganastan You mean Afghanistan? And yes, they are a predominantly muslim country as well. Actually the particular instance that I was referring to I beleive happened in Iran, I can't remember. Does it matter? The point was that Muslim women are horribly repressed and have zero basic human rights. But some are taking tremendous risks to facilitate change, and that is amazing and inspiring. so are they being repressed by thier religion or by their government? or are they the same? are the women who live in those countries who are not muslim as reperssed?

well the main religion in india is hindu and not muslim. although both countries have a variaty of religious influences. YOu know i love to stir the pot minx it is my joy in life. I agree, human rights should apply world wide. and that is a great concept. i am not so sure america is the country to set the standards or enfource them. I actuly do understand that other countries do not benifit from the kind of infostructure and opertunities for wealth that even the most dis advantaged americans have. I am greatful we have the rights that we have. It would be great to climb K2 one day. so i do understand the need to have a cultural exchange and friendly relationship with the country and the people. i am not saying it is a bad idea. what i am ASKING is... what are the consequences going to be? with every action there are intended consequences and unintended consequences. has any one thought that out? could it be possible that life would then become more difficult for the women chosing to take the class? we can go in on our ritious high horse of thinking we know what is best, but do we? one more time, i am not for or against this. i think it is sticky politicaly.

Normally I would agree with this statement but not in the case of a Muslim country. In other places, where women are already considered equals, of course this would be true. But in places where women can be arrested for wearing brightly colored scarves, they need to have the chance to shine on their own. I think this sounds like an amazing opportunity, and an excellent cause. In all muslim countries women are standing up for their basic human rights, and the world should be supportive. i thought that was Afaganastan

i'm not usually a fan of women only functions but there's nothing inherently wrong with getting a group of girls together to have some fun and learn. chicks with picks may seem goofy to you but quite a few women have learned to ice climb that way. not a bad thing if you're a female and little worried about hanging w/the guys when it comes to learning a new sport. remember these women have no familiarity with this type of endeavor. muffy- i couldn't disagree more. the poverty in so many parts of the world is staggering. i mean truly indescribable. the disparity between the rich and the poor is so great that it makes the US population look uniformly wealthy. its not a difference in culture and priority. its a lack of resources and infrastructure. if it was truly cultural, then no one in those countries would bother to live in a real house, own a car or have electricity -- they do. it oppressive poverty. its good for the US well being to help people in other countries. it hopefully builds some measure of goodwill between us and those with whom we have idealogical differences. here in the US lots of people need help and better access to health care. h/e much of that is due to mismanagement of current programs and money. its not as though billions and billions of dollars don't get poured into these programs each year. they can choose to take the class if they want to. for many it may be the first real "lifestyle" choice they've had in a while. individually they'll have to decide what personal risks it brings. you can't MAKE someone climb. the women will probably not be draped from head to toe if they are climbing with other women only. even if they are perhaps instead of the burqa they can wear salwar instead. not every muslim wears a burqa. not everyone in pakistan is muslim. i worked in a women's only health club many years ago. we had a muslim client. her husband would drop her off fully covered at the front door. she came in and wore regular work out clothes and swimsuits. she only excercised in the rooms with no windows though so no men would see her. because it hasn't been done much. that's not the role that women are viewed in right now. maybe it has but not much obviously. sometimes it takes an outside catalyst to bring change. my guess is sherri means she doesn't want to turn pakistani culture upside down. i'm betting she sees this as a small shift that might improve women's rights which are human rights. women don't have to have the same role as men in a society to be treated respectfully and humanely. its not up to us to determine their role. i do think it's important that we continue to open the doors to basic human rights though. women choose many different roles here in the US. most of the wome in my neighborhood (stepford) don't have jobs. Culture varies here from one city to the next, one region to the next. the difference is the choice and the opportunity. its a misconception that women in pakistan don't work. many in the cities do. this class just creates a new avenue. I couldn't agree with you more. it is about choice and there are woman with college educations and jobs and careers in pakastan india and all over the place. what i am trying to get at is that i don't neccisarily think that "the american way" is the right way for everyone else.I am not a political or cultural expert nor do i play one on tv. that being said, i don't think it is my business to tell other people how to live. you just said women in pakatan have all these options and choices and jobs and careers already... so i am confused. do these women desperatly need our help or not?

okay well that whole story made me cry and all i have to offer is a hug. you are a lucky man to have had so good a friend.

damn it i try to ignor that as much as i can. ignorance is bliss

Excellent point. The logistical limitations imposed by the wearing of the burqa seem to be a tripping point(literally and figuratively) when these women attempt to transition toward non-traditional activities. Given this, one could say that the mere requirement of the burqa acts an insurance policy against the attainment of complete physical freedom. But then, again, perhaps similar arguments could be made about the stereotypes perpetuated by fashion standards in western cultures, such as make-up, tight jeans, fake fingernails and high heels, although these accoutrements are worn voluntarily? I remember seeing a young (Mennonite?) woman jogging on a hot day while wearing a full headscarf and an ankle length, long-sleeved dress; I could just barely see the running shoes poking out from beneath her hem with each stride. In contrast, I was sweating away in a sports bra and skimpy nylon shorts, feeling the interplay of warm sun and soft breeze on my skin. Here we were in the same country, in the same neighborhood, at the same time, doing the same sport, but we were having completely different experiences. I assumed mine must be better, or more comfortable, at the least but I don't know how if I came to the correct conclusion. I was hot, but she was the one smiling. I am not really sure what you are trying to get at except that you don't like to run. too bad for you. I do not feel like i have to wear tight jeans or heals. those are things that i like and wear because i like them. I do not feel like i have to wear makeup and i often don't. we have a culture of freedom in this country. our government was founded upon the principle of individual rights (granted then it was ment for white men, but you get my point) i would not be caught dead trying to climb in a coresset and a bustle, but those are not longer FASHIONABLE now are they. so out of curisoity, if you don't want to change the culture in pakistan, why do you support americans going there and training them? dont you think for a moment it is possible that some woman whos brother is a guide could teach her and then she could teach other women? i don't understand why americans feel the need to do this. it reminds me of missionaries. yes they do alot of good, but at the cost of demanding that people pray to the christian god. what is the cost to these woman? who's god will they need to pray to? the god of capitalism? the god of sexual freedom? the god of feminisum? we can not promise them thier lives will be better if they do this. it is possible they will be outcast from thier families and thier comunity. then what?

hmmm i dont' have a Jimmi so that explains why i don't get it. acter some discusion it seems like the issue is not so much that i can't get the tri cam out as it is that my ropegun places shit too high for me to reach from the good stance. nuts and cams i can generaly coax out of the crack with one hand... not so much the tri cam. live and learn and keep trying

read again Thinker, it says IF IT (meaning climbing) is against their religion. i love it when people read what they want into what i write. I made one comment about the social norms of the area in question and one comment about a mythical person requesting me to teach them to climb even if IT was against thier religion. i see what you are saying and i did point out in the comment that i made that i understood that the program is segregated to allow for the social norms of the area. i don't really know much about the culture of the area, however i do think it would be difficult to climb draped in material form head to toe. i am not for or against the program. I think it's great but sticky politicaly.

will someone pretty please teach me how to remove a tricam??? thank you

Interesting topic. IMHO i think the program should be open to men and women. I am just as opposed to things being "women only" as i am to them being "men only" I think helping other people in other countires do the things they want to do is great but i think it is really easy for people to go in and "westernize" (I get that is the reaon there is a group of women doing this, so the women can take the classes and not damage their honor and thier families honor. ) I would be really intersted to see what this org is doing to help people in the US. we get so focused on helping to educate poor underpriveleged people in other countries when often times what we think is poor and under priveleged is just a difference in culture and priority. is this really what the woman WANT or did someone convicne them somehow? i couldn't answer but that would be my concern. if someone came to me and asked me to teach them to climb even though it was against their religion, i would becuase they asked me to. however, i would never ever try to convicne someone. it is a challenging situation. and one i do not understand well. I think that any human who wants to do a job and is physicaly able should be able to. in the end we all answer to our own gods for the choices we make.

THAT IS SO CC.COM CLASSIC

ya that sounds odd to me.

those pictures never get old