Layback

No matter how many times this route sees a TR it's still awesome to read. I love that route. It was one of the first I attempted when I moved here too - except I learned how to make a checker board from seri strips and wait out a storm. Congrats!

It's true that The Mountaineers have done their own share of messed up stuff that isn't cool. Personally I think the party of 6 that the Mountaineers had on The Tooth was too big also, but that's been the maximum number allowed on Monty alpine rock climbs since I've been a member, which was 2005. I'd like to see that number dropped to 4 personally. I can't speak to whatever dumb stuff the club surely did before that. The large groups you've seen on the Nisqually, for which the club paid for and was issued special use permits, were terminated in 2007 because it doesn't teach students the right thing and it makes the club look bad. No offense Ira, but you're "we had 15 on Friday" and "that's what you do in a class" attitude kind of worries me what you're teaching your students about acceptable group size and consideration for others in the general climbing community. We all have a right to enjoy a day on Das Toof no matter how skilled or unskilled we are. Do you really think it's considerate to others to put up top-ropes on every pitch of The Tooth? Couldn't you just as easily go out in parties of 6 over 2 weekends instead of parties of 12-15 over one weekend? Isn't it the same number of qualified people to oversee the folks who are learning? It's not like we're talking about a crag where one can just walk in their flip flops another 10 feet and set up on the next climb, you know? I hope you reconsider when planning for next year. I think it might make everyone's experience better, including perhaps your own people. My 2 overstated cents...

I reached out to the WAC via email to basically ask "what gives?" and had a nice email exchange with one of their members who is going to call me this week. Maybe some good can come out of this and we can see an adjustment to the group size in the future. Surely they don't all have the same "we don't give a damn" attitude that Ira seems to have?

Someone suggested that a separate thread was in order. Discuss. http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7991096

June would be better than July or August IMHO. I think your kid will fry in the summer where it's two steps forward and one step back in the hot, dry pumice. At least in June if it's cool you can add layers. I assume your putting your toddler in a kid carrier.

Another vote for the Deuter Kid Comfort II. We've used it on overnight backcountry hut-to-hut trips. It adjusts well so both you and mom can carry the kiddo. I've yet to do a summer overnight with my son and wife so I can't speak to it's ability to handle your gear, your toddler's gear and a tent.

I didn't say they had more than 12. The images clearly show 11 people (+1 photographer) and the exif data clearly shows that this is when they do their alpine rock FT at the Tooth every year. ETA: I'd also throw a Mounty group under the bus if there was a group that big on an alpine rock climb. If we, the climbing communiy, don't hold people accountable for their actions stuff like this happens and eventually one of us gets stuck on a rock climb waiting for 12 of our closest friends...

There are legal limits and there are ethical limits. 12 on the Tooth is way beyond the realm of ethical. My Mountaineers groups, which include students, never exceed 4 on a rock climb or ice climb and never exceed 6 on a glacier. You can be respectful to the climbing community and still get your students the experience you/they desire if you take the time to care.

It looks like it could have been the WAC (and according to their calendar they'll have a big group there Saturday and Sunday too): http://wacclass.org/calendar/weekend_calendar.htm Here's an image from their trip there last year. Seems kind of excessive if you ask me. I wish people would hold them accountable because they make all of the clubs look bad when they pull this crap. The Flickr set is here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/snutur/sets/72157618011237549/with/3529598416/ Another image from 2007: That set is here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrewjohnsullivan/sets/72157600305414195/with/528494091/

Given the fact that she was a healthcare provider (inpatient physical therapist at VM), I'm willing to bet that she wasn't asking the world of REI. Most healthcare providers, and I deal with 100s for work, have a significant distaste for lawsuits. I suspect she was only asking for what she needed. Just a guess without doing any research.

Here's an interesting post from NWH that I'm going to quote and react to... I think that Mikey nailed the reasons for what I'd call REI's downfall over the last 5-6 years arriving where we are today with the Monika case. Once you link profit to compensation you lose sight of the people you serve and align yourself with the money you CAN MAKE by focusing on the biggest target audience with the largest margin. Another year goes by and you take another step away from your mission in order to advance the bottom line and increase revenue. I'm very disappointed in the direction that REI has taken and what they've become. Folks on the east coast will appreciate what EMS (Eastern Mountain Sports) has become. Once a retailer of only the finest outdoor gear, about 10 years ago they took a weird turn and became a retail clothing store with some outdoor gear. I'll never forget the first time I came to WA in 2001 and walked into the Flagship store. It was like I had landed in the center of the climbing universe. I used to tell people that every trip to the Cascades begins and ends at REI. I thought the contrast between REI and EMS was so awesome. I think the advent of the REI corporate bonus is what has shaped them into an EMS "me-too". Monika's case is just another symptom of this. It's very disappointing...

Here's the form letter I got in response. Curious if others received the same...

Email sent. Linky.

The following images are circa 2000 incase the mullet offends ya'. Jeff on "Jackie", a Gunks 5.5: Yours truly topping out on the 2nd pitch of "Jackie", which goes at 5.2:

Awesome Matt. The Gunks are where I learned to climb 13 years ago. There's no better place to crag in the US in my opinion. No doubt the ratings are stiff; I like to call them real. I went home last year and climbed at the Gunks thinking I had progressed to being a solid 5.8 leader and got a rude awakening on a 5.6. Did you happen to experience High Exposure? I don't think I've ever led a finer moderate anywhere.

My thoughts exactly. WA ratings are soft (and I'm one of those horrible Mounties). I wonder if those "Mounties" Builder was talking about weren't just your average internet sprayer... WA is the only state I've been able to lead a 5.9. On the east coast I'm a 5.7 leader at best. Where are you from on the East Coast Drederik?

Turns out I have pneumonia so you don't need to kick steps or take pics (but have fun nonetheless). The decision of to ski or not to ski just got a lot easier...

If you do the Brothers Wednesday it would be awesome if you posted some pics. If the weather actually cooperates this weekend we're really on the fence about bringing skis. Oh and kick some steps too please.

Seth Hobby's Northern Alpine Guides does a great job. I spent 3 weeks with him in Nepal and highly recommend him. He's a local guy (Bellingham) who has moved to Norway. http://www.alpineguides.no/ http://northernalpine.blogspot.com/

Cool. Thanks for the info.

Has anyone been up there? I know the trail is snow-free to Lena Lake. Curious what it looks like beyond that at the present moment. I'd like to ski it next weekend if there's as much snow as I suspect (and perhaps a little more stable than what we're seeing in the Cascades at that elevation). Thanks.

Cool beans. Just sent you and Mark a PM. It was easy to find because it was right next to the water bottle I dropped. baa

Who made it? Pretty sure I picked it up and I'd be happy to get it back to you.

Nice job guys. Saturday was anything but nice - I think we saw you in the lot at 6:00 a.m. What kind of skyhook did you drop? I was 1 of the 4 people on TC and GD on Sunday.