Off_White

Truth be told, I don't think Bush's avoidance of the draft is that big a deal in and of itself, I'd have likely taken (or had daddy's connections make) the same opportunity if I were draft fodder at that time. It's the bristly chickenhawk posture and the willingness to smear Kerry for making a different choice that galls me. Own up to your shit and STFU, but the holier-than-thou sanctimonious stance Bush strikes just begs for a smackdown. I fully acknowledge that Kerry's war hero histrionics beg for the same thing, but the use of lies and slander to achieve it is not honorable. I know Honesty has been a hot topic around here lately, but essentially I feel that Bush has no honor, he's never taken responsibility for the shit he's done throughout his whole life, and the buck always stops at someone else's desk. From his guard service, recreational drug use, yale on a c average, running the companies he was given into the ground, insider trading (records now sealed by presidential order), DUI, taking credit for a Texas education bill that only passed because the legislature overrode his veto, to the damned undeclared war we're in that he started for reasons he changes more often than his underwear, the man just doesn't take responsibility for his actions. Carp all you want about Kerry, I don't trust Bush farther than I can dropkick a bowling ball, and his time is up. Sure, it's possible that Kerry would also be a fuck up as President, but unlike Bush, he hasn't proven that yet. In this instance, I'll gladly take "maybe" over "definitely."

Thanks Peter Puget, I was wondering if anyone else heard the Specials when they read the title of this thread.

Yep, Chappaquidick was tragic, and Teddy was a guilty dog, both of adultery and manslaughter. The man should have done time for that. Of course, both sides have these things happen. I believe Laura Bush was quite sober in 1963 when she ran a stop sign at high speed and teeboned the driver's side of her ex boyfriend's car, killing him almost instantly. She didn't even get a ticket, much less a grand jury indictment. It was a clear night, no obstructions, he was two blocks from his house, and there was no way she could have been unaware of the stop sign or failed to see the rather distincitive Corvair he was driving. One rumor around town at the time said she had told him she was pregnant, and he broke up with her. Heresay only, I freely admit. 41 years later she still "can't talk about it" though that may have as much to do with the 5th amendment than a failure to deal with one's own past. Nowadays, you can't even find a picture of Michael Dutton Douglas, who never made it to 18.

Yeah, thanks for the info, sounds great.

Ahhh fuggedahboudit, it's raining.

Looks like we had a squall move through, but things have dried up. I think the cliff is dry enough for climbing.

I withhold judgement until I have all the facts. You don't have the whole story, regardless of what you say. Enough of this back and forth, just fuck off and die. Thank you. Your boy is on the ropes, anyway, from what I hear. hahaha

Three days? How about a light and fast Ptarmigan Traverse, remind you just how low and lackluster the tatty ends of the cascades really are down in your neck of the woods. Perhaps go get some deep-in-the-north-cascades goodness and do Challenger. North side of Bonanza. Hozomeen by any route. Stuart range is lovely, but haven't you logged enough time in there over the years?

set the record straight: link

I dunno about it being an awesome mountain, but I think it's the easiest and cheapest way to get over 18,000 feet. We skipped staying in town at all, and promptly got a jeep run to the hut, which we share with some mysterious mexican climbers who never left their plastic shrouded bunk. Thankfully, they did share the output of their cheap transistor radio tuned to some relentless pop station, and hearing "My Charona" seven times in one night made for a memorable Christmas Eve. I must say though that my favorite moment was digging some snow halfway up the route for a morning brew and finding toilet paper in the water.

You waste a perfectly good tease just for the sake of fucking basketball? Is that one of the sports they play that doesn't use sticks, or is it one of the ones with the funny shaped balls?

Yep, we'd have to effectively kill everyone, carpet bomb the place with MOABs and nukes, and as the population dwindled to zero, I guarantee resistance would fade. A combination of primitive "destroy everyone" warfare with modern military capability and an absence of effete humanisim and morality would ensure victory of a sort, but there's no way the population of this country (to it's credit) would accept those tactics and definition of victory. Raze the cities and plow the fields with salt, only the modern defintion of salt has a half life of 50,000 years. Problem is, we want the population of Iraq to see the world though our lens, and the military is a clumsy tool for that effort. We'd be better off securing unimpeded access for the advertising industry to reshape reality. In short, no, I don't think the public would accept what is needed to achieve a purely military victory in Iraq. The people in Iraq who want a modern society will have to step up to the plate and win that battle.

I dunno, seems like I read how someone or other got their knickers in a twist over gumbies dropping rocks recently.

Well, I fear I was a criminal this weeekend, but I secured a tenant for my almost over endless remodel project in Portland, got blissfully hot and sweaty at a great Dead Moon show in PDX, caught up with lots of old friends at a couple social events, and gorged on amazing corn, ribs and salmon, so I don't count the holiday weekend a complete loss.

Right on Dryad, c'mon, stick your head into the gaping maw of the woodchipper that is the CC.Com political squabbles. Welcome! No, really. I mean it.

Let's be honest: this is not really your forte.

Robbob, two other veterans say they were there on the boat that night, and that Schachte wasn't. ( source)What motive do they have to lie? Unlike Schachte, they aren't lobbyists for companies securing multi-million dollar contracts from the Bush administration. In an April 2003 Boston Globe interview, Schachte described the event as a "firefight" and that Kerry was hit (but that the injury was minor), so why did he change his story now? As I understand it, all but one of the men who served under Kerry are on his side in various SVT matters, so I'm not just taking the word of media pundits. I'm also aware of the fallibility of memory, and I know you're old enough to have 36 year old memories, and I'll wager they differ from those of others who were there with you during whatever youthful shennanigans you were engaged in. I agree that the Kerry campaign made a decision to place Vietnam in the forefront of their sales pitch, and it didn't win them any points with me. I understand their reasoning, democrats traditionally have a hard time looking tough about things military, but it's not what I want to hear about it. It also makes sense that the republicans would counterattack in any way possible to make Kerry look bad, since they can't trumpet about the superior service of their candidate. But don't take my word for it, St. John McCain has also denounced the whole slanderous mess.

Is there a link to bring one back to the forums and I'm just missing it?

How could such a charmingly titled thread go so awry? What's your favorite flavor, Bronco?

As compared to say, the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth, who have nothing but more lies and double standards from a whole clutch of fuckhead republicans.

No glacierdog, I think that Bush believes lining his friends and cronies pockets IS what is good for the US. He may even really believe that cutting taxes for the wealthiest Americans is good for the working poor. I just think he's wrong. I do believe he flat out lied about Iraq, bald faced bullshit spun out to get people to buy into something that serves another agenda. His latest justification, that we're there because Saddam was a bad man, is absolutely not what he sold the war on. I think Bush probably does believe he's doing the right thing for this country, but I don't believe he'd piss down your throat if your face was on fire. Beyond lip service, he's certainly no friend to the military folks on the ground.

Yeah, Schachte has changed his story several times, I definitely suggest you don't vote for him, since his honesty is as much in question as anyone's in this campaign. As far as the relative honesty of the two major presidential candidates, I have no doubt that both sides dissemble and mislead, but I sincerely believe that the secretive Bush administration has made lies that have killed a lot of people and squandered billions and billions of dollars. That weighs far more heavily on me than the grave doubts I have about Bush's own stories from 33 years ago, or any suspicion that Kerry may have sprayed about his war experiences. All this obsession with relatively ancient history detracts from focussing on the things that really matter, and I weary of the tired he said-she said bickering about old stuff. BTW, the original "Honesty" thread was about media representation of the recent Russian hostage horrorshow, not about the US presidential campaign.

Don't make me change your title twice in one day WTF does Kerry have to do with recent events in Russia? And PP, I've looked at that thread, I still don't see how the choice of labels for the kidnappers has much bearing in this event, is anyone in the US media claiming this was justified?

Area around Pinto Rock and Pole Patch Campground in the southern Cascades is stellar car-access picking, sub alpine ridges with equidistant view of Ranier, Adams, and St. Helens. Do the sport route on the south end of Pinto Rock while you're there.