Off_White

There are wet spots, but there are also dry routes. If it doesn't rain for the, what, 4th wednesday in a row?, it should be fine.

There's nothing that's "stealing" about power drilling outside the wilderness boundary. The line you're trying to draw is based on your personal belief, not the law, nor even interpretations of it. I understand you find it offensive, but that doesn't make it a crime.

Cman, I'm not familiar with the details of the project, is the tunnel opening in a wilderness area? The loophole may be that the "wilderness area" doesn't extend to the center of the earth. Hmmm, by the same token, would that make lateral drilling into a wilderness area legal?

Oh, I agree with you Lambone, but I don't think calling the Feds is a preferred option. Maybe you don't either, I guess you haven't really said. What is your position on calling the federal government to turn in someone for motorized drilling in the wilderness? Would personal experience with the individual involved play any role in your decsion? I do think your "moderators are picking on me" stance is disingenuous. I've never given you any cause to believe I'm some sort of rogue cop out to get you, and ChucK is not even a moderator in this forum. Anyway, I'm far more interested in the topic at hand rather than some digression about how oppressed you feel by a bunch of moderators. I'd be glad to discuss this further via PM if you'd like.

The Wawona Tunnel must really piss you off, not to mention granite countertops, gravel roads, Mt. Rushmore, and the stone lions at the Seattle Art Museum. Please note that we're not discussing whether bolts are valid, but rather the effect of method of placement vis-a-vis the law, enforcement of motorized tool bans in wilderness areas, and how to maintain climber access.

What's the bigger threat to access and freedoms, somebody using a power drill in a wilderness area or someone getting the authorities involved and inflamed about it? I don't think bringing the cops in to assuage one's moral outrage is a great plan. Speeding and pot smoking are every bit as against the law as power drilling in the wilderness, so if you want to make an issue about "obeying the law" then why are those examples out of the equation? If the issue is affecting access, and assuming that part of the problem is population pressure from more and more participants, then which is worse: being busted for power drilling in a wilderness, or running a school that adds hundreds of new people to the sport every year? Selling your image to an advertising company that uses it on national television?

That's a good point about the wording of the Poll Merv, beause of course we're talking about individuals. It was a long time ago that I lost the simple notion that membership in any subculture automatically makes one an okay person. If you've already had contact with the person doing the bolting, and know there is no chance of agreement, you get nothing but "fuck you, I'll do what I want, and you can't stop me," then what are your options? Calling the cops is better (though maybe not more satisfying) than setting their car on fire. Public embarassment if private negotiation brings no results? That's a possiblity, especially if common sentiment runs counter to the individual's actions.

Now that's a good question. I think the constitution wouldn't allow stocks and pillories. Also, there's a question of just how effective the education could be if the person supposed to provide it is not truly repentant?

Would you call the forest service if Gotterdamerung rides his bike to Dutch Miller Gap? Will you call the BLM if someone smokes pot at camp during the Smiffytuffyfest? Do you call the cops when your wife speeds? I think discussion and peer pressure would be far more preferable than tattling to the cops. The fact that things are illegal doesn't stop people from doing them (see the list above) but if all your friends think it's uncool you're much less likely to do it.

With regard to the actual crime, rather than playing guess the perp, it sounds like a good outcome. Awareness and education about the issue will be good for everyone, and the more noise about it the better.

Scott? Here's a tidbit: he was once involved in stripping all the bolts and chains off the Beaver Wall on Mt Lemmon in Tucson in a short anti-rap-bolt war in the mid 80's. Unlike the mangled hangers in that photo, no damage was done to the wall or the hardware, and it led to a large community meeting and discussion at someone's house, and the gear was deposited there in a huge clanking heap. I think there was a brief diminshment in activity, then there was a large climber population turn over and subsequent sport explosion. Scott went on to do a lot of bolting from hooks, and I believe from there into full on rap bolt creations. He's put up some good routes, and has been prolific as hell.

I've met Lou too, but I was much less impressed than you. I thought he was full of poo and none too attached to the troo th

I'll stroll down the crag today and check it out. The end of last week, there were the start of some serious drips, but only a few, so naturally I'm optimistic.

If it's that one from Spanish television, I think remarkably they did live. I think it was an anchor failure rather than a rope breaking. It's a real gut churner of a vid clip though, a link was posted quite awhile ago. I don't need to see it again.

I was always more partial to Zamfir, the Lonely Goatherd. Man, that guy could play the pan pipes. Just imagine what he could do with jazz flute!

The real question is how does it stack up against a Unimog? Funny, I can't seem to find any info about mileage?

I understand, just trying to give you a jovial nudge to put things in perspective. Yes, you are working on it.

That place is pretty much top of the list of family vacations not yet taken, thanks for the trip report on such a "non climbing" destination.

Honestly GD, you engage in personal slurs towards others at times, so you shouldn't be so brittle when shit slops onto your side of the kettle.

The joke being that No va is spanish for "Won't go" There's another car model out now called the Tucson. Hey, there's some good climbing down there, but really, the town is like Queens with palm trees.

I think that's the crux of the biscuit, war is an inappropriate tool for winning hearts and minds, and it's a mistake of the political set to think it can be used that way. War is really about death, killing, blood, guts, and veins in my teeth. It's a dominance and submission thing, and a clumsy instrument to wield in service of swaying opinion. If they wanted to to just change people's minds, it would have been better to pump 1/10th the funding into the advertising industry and let them do as they will.

Are you sure you didn't mean to say FUCKING RETARDED?

In the main index, in the description of the Spray forum (which this thread is in right now) is this line: Be warned this forum is not for the thin skinned.

Maybe he was talking about Masceoli & Pilling