scott_harpell

Our Soldiers didn't leave; one need only look at the news to see our attention did. Ohhh... so you are saying that what the media thinks= what the people think. Well... that would explain Seattle, but I don't think you are going to be able to prove that correlation.

Of course they did. THey had to know where to send the checks. If what you mean by "squeeze the juice" is get illegal oil, then yes I know they did this. If you are implying that the economic sanctions were hurting him any, you obviously don't remember how much money he had when he took off. Money that is and was beign spent on terrorist opperations. There was an article in wired just yesterday about that. I don't think economic sanctions do shit.

So I wonder CJ, would you support an attack of Iran or Saudi Arabia then? Or would you want to put "pressure" on them like we do with Cuba so that the only people who suffer are the citicens rather than the dictator? Economic sanctions are ridiculous and have little or no effect on the leader. Look at Saddam... the fucker had how many dozens of palaces? I don't think he was bumming it at all.

I am not sure what you mean about discouraging students. I have many friends from Albania and other former Easter Bloc countries that are studying in the states. I agree about Saudi Arabia, and also Iran. I am sure they are next. WHo has said we are done in Afghanistan? This is a ridiculous statement. Are you implying that we left Afghanistan to go to Iraq because I have a buddy from High School that is still in Afghanistan and he might like to know about this.

Nevermind then...

Funny, this thread seems like conservative wanking Well cough up an answer then. What would you have done. Or more importantly as November is almost here; What would John Kerry have done?

You are dodging. Should we have done nothing? I will ignore the fact that there were 10,000 instalations which had expolsives and just say that we can take responsibility to keep this on track. You have still not stated what you think we should have done. For people who always have the answers and can critique the failures of others, you sure seem to be sorely lacking.

I would say it is certainly better than nothing; a position seemingly taken by the rest on this board. You can have your Free Tibet! stickers on your subaru and feel good that you are sving the planet, but unless you are willing to face the facts that some problems cannot be remedied with subarus and bumper stickers and must be cured with rifles and tanks you will never be a part of the solution. How do you want to free Tibet? With a bumper sticker?

When you sign huge farm subsidy bills what else you going to do with it Well what are you going to do? This vague... help the 3rd world shit is liberal ass-cover. Suggest something to do to fix it and then do it. That is why people like GWB. Even though he may be the greatest fuck-up in the world, he at least believes in something and does something about it. Far better than just tyring to rationalize the situation crying about 3rd world famine. If you think that is the answer, what are you prepared to do about it? I believe that there would be little 3rd world famine if it weren't for the leaders of 3rd world countries. You canno tell me that there is not enough money to feed their country when Saddam has 38 palaces. Please. You blame the H2 drivers in the U.S. for the hunger of a people who's leader is a billionaire?!?!? please!!

How would the palestinians put Arafat on trial. Please. How would the Iraqui's put Saddam on trial without our help? They can't because these 3rd world countries are fucked up. They are not fucked up because of us, they are fucked up because their leaders are tyrranical billionaires that have 38 palaces and eat caviar and have 400 wives while the rest of their country starves. You say that we should help out the 3rd world? Well I say that we just did. By catching that ass hole and letting the Iraquis try him for the rape of their women, the murder of their children and the slaughter of their brothers.

Scott- The question isn't the president's false dichotomy of his course of action or do nothing. Doing nothing is not going to make Islamic terrorism go away - neither will creating more failed states to breed terror (Iraq! N Korea!) - engagement and improvement in the 3rd world is the way forward. So... more corn?

If'n y'alls too faquin 'tardid ta figer out votin, ya'lls at too dumta faquin vote t'ainyways yhear?

Well I am all for reducing campaigns where 3,000 innocent civilians are murdered. I think another large portion is the taking out of the religious clerics who have the other, more moderate, muslim clerics murdered because they don't support the bastardization of the concept of jihad. Again, israel did this to a man who was in a wheelchair and everyone lambasted them for it. Wheelchair or not, he was still responsible for many deaths. Besides these things, I feel that doing nothing is a far worse strategy. If not for military intervention, what do the rest of you think we should do? Have the CIA build more bin Ladens? I think we are doing the right thing in confronting this with our men and with our money. I thought that creating bin Laden was cowardice and underhanded. We are paying for it, but we will right the wrong.

Either way you look at it, it is clear that the only reason that we won with out killing every soldier they had was because of the bomb. Japan still refused after the fist bomb and even the second bomb to surrende without him being left in. Whether McArthur wanted this to happen or not, they would not have surrentdered without this clause.

Anyone heading to the laptop battle in Belltown tonight? My buddy is in it and we are heading down tonight to start th festivities. B.P.? Alpo?

Well we didn't even win agains Japan on our terms as we left the emperor without being tried of war crimes and still in power. You know it is sad that it is happening to Iraq but it seems that a lot of terrorists are flocking there to help the cause. If that large of a concentration was to be destroyed adn we were able to find zarqaway (sp?) and bin ladin and the like, I think it would go a long way to fixing the sitation. I would definitely place more emphasis on the capturing of the leaders who are the real reasons these attrocities are taking place.

The mentality is similar to taht of Japan and raw violence is the only thing that made them bow. They were ready to fight to the last soldier until we completely overwhelmed them. This is something that I think should hav been done in Iraq (no, no the bomb, but overpowering them). Some people have no ability to reason because of their belief systems. If these people are hell bent on killing you there is little else you can do. I will concede that there are people who we can and should use diplomacy with but we have no chance at even getting at these people while the mindless propaganda is going around. Do you know that even in Italy the majority feel that George Bush paid for 9/11 to happen? Now this is a westernized country. Imagine the propaganda possible in a country like Iraq who was ruled by a tyrannic leader. Kinda helps you to understand why we are hated so much at the same time. I also look at the way the media tries to only show those that hate the U.S. while I have friends in Iraq that get hi-5's from the citizens there. It is not partisan, but rather that guns make a better story than hi-5's. I see your point but I still don't think there is any practicality in it right now before we clean the area up a little bit.

Jim get real. You are full of it. Imperialist? Do you even realize the kind of rhetoric that comes out of your mouth? Give me a break.

but Jim. THe UN was not given total access to as depots. How were we to know they even knew what they were talking about. You don't think that Saddam did this on purpose to scare us into thinking he did in fact have these weapons? Too bad it worked a little too well. I believe you are far too hung up on your partisan b.s. with your 'bushco' this and that. Things are not as simple as you would like to believe. Roosevelt lied to start a war, Johnson lied to start a war. There is shit we just aren't privvy to Jim. What you have to ask yourself is who is going to take care of you and who has your best interests at heart. You can spout off all the rhetoric in the World, but I will tell you that I woul rather face these wackos then live the rest of my life on my tip-toes trying not to piss them off. I think they are cowards and evil evil people. Have you seen what they did to that architect? Cut off his head. Not with a sword, but with a pocket knife. THESE PEOPLE CANNOT BE DEALT WITH BY REASON!. The only thing they understand is the sword and I will support someone that is willing to give it to them. I feel sorry for the people who are stuck, powerless, in the middle, but ultimately it is for their own good. It's too bad that they don't like us but that isn't the business we are in.

I might also point out the posturing that Saddam made prior to the war. He implied that he did in fact have these weapons as he stated that he had, "a surprise waiting for the invading infidels." If you want to get down to it, the best case scenario, we did find WMD and he was planning a huge offensive on the states and we subverted that. Worst case scenario, we ended the reign of a tyranical leader who has tortured and killed more bodies than will ever be shed in this war. I truly feel that a war against these militants was inevitable and am not really against this war even at this point.

1) Neither has 80+% of the other countries we have warred. 2) That was not determinable and this is clearly illustrated by the position of Kerry pre- war and now during the war. 3) Clearly not the case. Perhpaps dormant might be a better word. I don't think we should ever let dormant aggressors do so ever again. We have seen the consequences of that mistake.

You must understand that many poeple feel that the only way to end the hatred is to en dth propaganda. Thi sis largely from extremist religious leaders. Israel is being condemned for this (I don't side with Israel; only in this regard). When a religious leader calls out for terrorism and mass murder, I feel he should be eliminated. There will be no end to this cycle unless the propaganda stops. You cannot talk diplomacy to these people. True you might be able to reach to common man, but how are you going to do this? by giving him a can of corn a day that says U.S.A. on it? How are you going to do this. This is why diplomacy in this case is idealist crap. There is no way for this plan to move into action.

Might I add that the Gulf of Tonkin is between China and Vietnam. Quite the place for a destroyer to be.

Yes. Gunboats attacked one of our ships. The North Koreans invaded South Korea. We returned the status quo, like Gulf War I Please do That is some good American history you have for Vietnam. Many schooled in other countries might as why there were destroyers within range of Vietnam. So, Korea didn't attack us then. Is that what you are saying? You didn't adress Yugoslavia either.

For sure there was but was it justified? You will find few that will say yes. You are asking for diplomacy to be used against people that declare jihads on authors, murder women and children (intentionally) and blow up civilian instalations? Please. What angle are you going to take with these people? I'd die to hear it. We have seen what diplomacy can do with Kofee Annan's inability to mobilize the UN. THe only thing that speaks to these people is power.