Bug

I ate and drank all day and all night. Did anyone do any climbing?

In teh 70's and 80'2 the Bitterroots were transformed from a trad ethic that allowed bolts to connect trad lines. There were very few sport routes and they tended to be short. But the ethic changed in 84-89 and dozens of sport routes were developed all over the range and on the outskirts. People generally got along until bolt appeared next to protectable classic lines and even through petroglyphs in one case. It became a war with old friends parting ways and bolts going in everywhere and being chopped randomly and with malice. Some routes were chopped so that the leader would find himself run out above safe limits before realizing there were no more bolts. There were fist fights and death threats and more than a couple sabotaged cars. In the end the net result was less access through private lands and Larry the Tool types casting mean glances. The point is that the "war" made it personal when the issue, I think, should have remained about best use and that horribly abused term, "multiple use". The Forest Service got involved in AZ and the Bitterroot FS started watching climbers more too. When closers came in AZ I was glad. It woke people up to the fact that it was not about climbers alone. Radically changing a rock with highly visible shiny bolts was not popular to most people. All climbers in the area suffered as a result. We had several meetings with the FS and land owners in teh Bitterroots and they all had no problem with the use of trad techniques. It was only bolting that wrinled their panties. Why is this so hard to see? Look at Infinate Bliss. I would love to climb it and will. But it's very existence threatens climbing and bolting elswhere due to the fear that the Escalante AZ fiasco will be repeated. Discuss

I thought you were banned by now. Now that I think about it, he said that "larches are not true Tamaracks" so that makes sense. There was a resort on Seeley lake we used to stay at called Tamarack Lodge. There isn't a tamarack around for a long ways. Just some really nice 120' Larches.

Hmm. Mah Daddy aluz said... Tammaracks and Larches are different species. He was a tree dude. He should know.

Adventure is a state of mind.

For a beginner climber, this is a good rating.

Give details about the climb and the style in which it was put up. and when it was bolted. Before it was climbed?

I took the stiches out of Meredith's cheek last night. Her eye is still bruised but doesn't hurt anymore. Thanks for all your sympathy. She was pretty impressed that she was the topic of an internet forum.

Halleluyah!

Ever tighten your gators so much your toes went numb?

I'm talking about the price per barrel going up. $50 is an alltime high.

Sausage. 1 pound. eggs one dozen.

Unfortunately, most of those younger voters will not make it to the polls. Of the people who do vote in 4 of 4 general elections, 70% are 45 or older. 18-25yr olds who actually vote make up an insignificant percentage of the voters who exercise their right.

It does not take into account the "oil tax". How much more are we paying at the pump? Who gets that? It's not me. And who will pay off that deficit if we do not recover? Me.

Good question. There are a lot of bad answers out there.

Aren't you banned yet? Read Zogby's polls. Only reliable source.

Well it is bound to be a sausage fest....

2+1=? Dang! I thought that once all the conservatives were exposed they would be eliminated. Maybe tonight?

Check again. Can you still post?

Fairweather too! Or give him one three word post a week.

It is. I counted. America, Europe, Asia. Add them up since the 70's alone. I'll bet you one burger at Gustav's that evidence from sales of passive gear will point at there being millions (2M or more)of trad climbers since 1970.

How about notifying a rule violater that they are on probation and only get 2 or 3 or 4 posts a day that will be subject to edits and deletions? This gives them a chance to present their side in an "acceptable" way while at the same time encourages them to think it over carefully before wasting a post.

Wait! You haven't banned Scott_harpell and Greg_W yet! Is that a valid suggestion?

Disagree. On some routes, ability does not define safety. Take some of the new mixed ice routes in the rockies for example. And lets not forget that the only reason ANY of us can climb above 5.11 is because we were able to train in safe situations. My point is thus. You can climb 5.11 becuase you can, maybe from training, and dedication. Would you bolt a 5.6 route? Probably not. But you probably would bolt a 5.10 route either becuase of your safety on the route or you are just lazy in placing pro. You don't feel as confident with 5.10 as you do with 5.6. (I cannot climb above 5.8) Now let's say joey (fictional man) can do 5.14 all the time. He is super confident in his abilities. 5.11 is a piece of cake to him and so why should he bolt a route? In other words, joey is climbing within his abilities. I have seen bolts on routes that are 5.4 . Heck I have seen bolts placed perfectly next to fine cracks. Should those bolts be there? At what grade do bolts become acceptable? More importantly, why do bolts become more acceptable at higher grades? More risk? Or is it becuase the person is climbing out of their "comfort zone"? Should the person placing the bolts be allowed to bolt becuase a route is out of their "comfort zone" wilst another person can just climb the route being completely "in the zone" without using bolts? Which begs to question. Why do I even use a rope? It is my belief that there should be no bolts placed where natural protection would safely protect the route. This is a common understanding by my experience. If you are out of your comfort zone, back off. Just because you WANT to climb something that is out of your comfort zone does not give you the right to permanently change the route. Millions of people have taken the time to learn how to place natural protection safely. There is no excuse for bolts next to a crack. Find some top rope situations if you need to improve your abilities. And then practice aiding cracks to get used to placing gear. There are alternatives to bolting cracks.

No. I have never advocated that. Are you saying that that is the only reason any of these people have been banned? I full support chopping power drilled routes inside wilderness. That is the truth. Not a threat. Leaving out of consideration any threats of personal bodily harm, Whose ideas? Are you saying that if someone illegally and against the popular consent and agency policy, power drills in the wilderness, they should be immune from real consequences (ie informing them that someone is into chopping the route)or protected? Try again. Your rhetoric is shallow. I'm puzzled by this digression into whining about board policies. It seemed like your discussion about bolting was going pretty well.