JayB

Hey Lambone: That's right when my girlfriend and I were planning on heading out there - we were planning on making it a four day outing. I'm flying into Seattle this Sunday and will be spending the week with family out in Port Orchard, but the next week is open. I lead up to WI4 (on a good day) and have all of the gear. Send me a PM or give me a ring (719-532-0308 in CO and 360-674-3595 in WA)and maybe we can work out a plan!

Rafael: I'd love to trade you but the only Express screws that I have are 22's....

Just to confuse things a little I'll cast my vote for the Grivel 360 screw. Here's why: 1. Less prep before placing the screw. When placing a BD screw one has to clean a circle 4" in diameter in order to crank the screw in all the way to the hanger. The Grivel screw can be placed in grooves, depressions, corners, and what have you with minimal cleaning, sometimes none at all. The harder the climbing gets (for me) the more important rapid placement becomes. 2. The longer handle provides greater leverage. If I remember correctly the force which one can apply by means of a lever increases with the square of the length of the lever. In hard ice I've found that the leverage provided by the longer lever makes it much easier to crank the screw in. Especially helpful when the only good ice is not adjacent to your waist and you don't have much leverage to begin with. 3. They've always cleaned more easily. 4. The threads. The threads on a Grivel screw have a reverse orientation that directs the force into the ice rather than outwards to the surface. How much difference does this make in practice - not sure but I'll take any advantage I can get. 5. The knob on the Grivel screws doesn't rip up my gloves like the knob on the Express screws. 6. Racking - it's not pretty but it works. I use a BD Ice-Clipper and have never encountered any problems - I can get them off of my rack and into my hand just as easily as I can with an Express screw. Not a significant downside in comparison to all of the other advantages IMHO. That's why I like the screws - but I'd be interested in hearing other's opinions. Why don't you like 'em. Also - I'll be flying out to Seattle this Sunday, and will happily trade my BD express screws (22cm) for 22cm 360s if they are in comparable condition (the BD's are more or less in mint condition). Also, with regard to tying off long screws vs placing short screws, I've seen studies that indicate that when tied off screws are placed under a heavy load, the ice below the screw shatters and/or the screw begings to bend downwards, and then the tie-off slides down to the end of the screw, which drastically increases the force on the portion of the screw which remains in the ice by means of the lever-effect and thus increases the odds of the screw failing.No disrespect to TG - I'd just be curious to hear what you think of the above scenario and/or what you've observed in practice when placing tied off screws.

Will: How long did the it take for your Rambocomps to arrvive after you ordered them? The folks at sportextreme supposedly put my order in the mail last Friday, and from the tracking info it looks like they are still sitting on a loading dock somewhere in Europe. I'm hoping they'll arrive before I get on the plane for WA next Sunday.

Anyone out there have any experience with these? I think I may have lost my old gloves and am looking for some replacements for ice. These look like they strike a pretty good balance between warmth and dexterity, the two perpetually conflicting imperatives of all ice gloves. Any opinions? Thanks.

Dudes leading desert splitters on hexes...in painter paints and a rugby shirt...

CloudVeil Serendipity jacket. Best/most versatile piece of gear I've ever owned. Worked great as a light-wind breaker for summer peak bagging, and kept me warm and dry while getting poured on as I was dragging my ass up a still forming icefall last weekend. Ended up with 1/2" of verglass on my helmet, but the H2O never made it through my jacket. It also kicks ass on approaches, as I can throw it on over a light polypro top and never have to change layers or endure yet another sweatbox experience in a shell that supposedly breathes. Might not be the right coat for a downpour in the Olympics, but it kicks ass for everything else. [ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: JayB ]

http://www.patagonia.com/webapp/commerce/Pgonia/Product.jspmerchant_rn=7385&cgrfnbr=124391&sku=83680

How about the lamest troll? It's a long day at work, baby....

"And even if they're not true, you can't say Americans don't get shit-on generalizations too. I say it's a rough world, buck up! If you can't handle some lip from somebody, you're probably not cut out to be a world traveler/climber. The idea of being able to climb el cap and not being able to handle being labeled/generalized/sterotyped is silly!" Word.

I’d have to vote for my BD Switchblade crampons. Take forever to adjust, rust in seconds, the super-wack snow dealy between the front point doesn’t seem good for anything except impeding penetration of the front points, and the secondary points are set so far back from the frontpoints that you have to drop your heel about 45 degrees below parallel to get them to engage, and they’re heavy as hell. After my last outing I decided enough was enough and ordered some Rambocomp mono’s from sportextreme.The only downside that I can forsee here is that it will be that much tougher to blame flailing on my crampons. Just wondering what they worst piece of gear that you own is - and what you'd like to replace it with...

"From the input I am receiveing looks like a spring RETROFIX party at the Coulee is on. More details to follow." I'll be there (I should have made the move back to WA then). Keep me/everyone posted and let me know if you want any help getting this going.

Carolyn: You might find some of the information about sizing/modifying plastic boots on the page I've listed below useful. If you fax them an outline of your feet they'll assist you with the choice. I just got a pair of Asolo AFS 8000 boots and love 'em. I've got long narrow feet and the fit was great right out of the box. Good luck! www.alaskamountaineering.com/Boots/Boots.htm

…For what it’s worth to anyone in the PNW. Headed out to Vail early Sunday morning and despite getting an early start witnessed legions of climbers ascending the gullies to the base of the climbs that we had intended to climb that day, with the exception of Spiral Staircase (WI 3-4) and The Pencil (WI 3-4). The folks that developed Vail seem to have a profound aversion to public parking, but after finding a place to leave the rig on the opposite side of the highway we headed up into the ampitheater that contains The Rigid Designator, The Fang, Octopussy, Fatman and Robin, Reptile, The Thang, and a host of other routes that I will never attempt to climb so long as I live. Anyhow, the designator was in, albeit extremely drippy and chandeliered, having apparently just touched down a few days earlier. The Fang looked like its moniker at this point, being a hollow 80 foot icicle about 18 inches wide at the base, with a regular shower pouring onto the cone at the base from within the formation. It looked as though a strong wind would knock it down at this point, but should touch down in a few days if the cold temps persist. One of the bad-ass mofo’s out there working a new mixed line behind the fang that will supposedly go at at least M10 had just finished warming up on The Designator, having placed a total of three screws on the ascent. I’ve met the guy before, and despite being a bad-ass mofo, he’s always been cool, generous, and enouraging. He offered my partner and I a chance to do a lap on his top rope, but we thanked him and declined, as we came here to lead as many of the routes as our humble abilities allowed. We marched around the corner to find a 10 man cluster-fest at the base of the Spiral Staircase, and returned to the designator to see if the top-roping offer was still valid. It was and I came away both impressed and humbled by what the aforementioned mofo had done. The ice at the base had formed into a giant, unprotectable pine-cone type-deal that you could hook and step your way up with abandon, but forget about getting pro. The shaft itself was convoluted, chandeliered, and dripping but for the most part the ice was sticky if you chose your targets carefully. Fun on TR but a gut-wrenching nightmare on lead – at least it would be for me anyway. After finishing up we got word that the cluster-fest had dissipated and hit the Staircase around the corner. The ice was a bit thin and hacked out for my taste, but it was a nice lead to finish the day out. After swapping leads we packed up and had a 500 foot luge ride down a packed-out glissade path that twisted through the Aspen groves. Best descent ever, courtesy of the 10-man cluster. Guess they were good for something! Anyway, the title of this thread said TR/Conditions, so here are the conditions, gratuitous as they may be for some of you. Firehouse – InPitkin Falls – InSpiral Staircase – InThe Pencil – InRigid Designator – InThe Fang – Just about touched down. Should be in in a week or two of you’re up for it.Pumphouse Falls – In. Looked like most of the 10 Mile canyon stuff was in, and the slopes above the routes we could see were snow covered but not loaded enough to present an extreme avalanche danger. Size it up and have at it if you feel like gambling and or the 10-man cluster is making a guest appearance at the base of your favorite climb.

Well, for what it’s worth, I think just about everyone who posts here would agree with philosophies espoused by Pope in his last post, in general. Few would argue with the notion that it is important to preserve the rock, and with it the integrity of the routes established upon it. Fewer still would dispute the notion that self-reliance, judgement, and adequate preparation are essential before attempting any route, especially those involving a significant degree of risk or commitment. Where Pope and I part company, it seems, is with the notion that placing or clipping bolts on sections of rock that are unprotectable otherwise automatically renders one an implaccable enemy of the values he champions, and a climber of a lower caliber. That’s a philosophical divide that we may never cross, and if not, that’s fine with me. It should be possible for “the community” to accommodate multiple perpsectives on these matters, so long as no one attempts to rigidly impose their outlook on the everyone else, be it through route destruction or recrimination and slander. What struck me when I read Preuss’s comments, and the reason why I posted them, is the light it sheds on the ethical disputes that agitate the climbers of today. I suspect he’d look at the ethical vanguards out there today who consider themselves the champions of severe, uncompromising ethics as little more than guardians of a corpse that perished long ago when the ethics of his generation faded away, supplanted as they were by a generation shameless enough to incorporate…ropes (!) into their ascents. This aspect of his outlook and the ethical disputes that no doubt raged around it seem rather quaint in hindsight, as do the disputes over 12 point crampons versus step cutting, passive-pro versus cams, sticky-rubber versus standard rubber, and many others that have faded into memory. I for one hope that the dispute about placing bolts on sections of rock that are otherwise unprotectable and at anchors will join its rightful place in this mausoleum of long expired conflicts so that we can focus on more important things like preserving the crags and peaks themselves, rather than engaging in hermetic disuputes about how we choose to climb them. [ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: JayB ] [ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: JayB ] [ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: JayB ]

This from John Middendorf's Piece in the latest edition of Ascent: "The Era of mechanically assisted rock climbs in the Eastern Alps was not without competition. Incredibly bold vertical routes were climbed without any mechanical protection at all - what we would call 'free-solo' today. Georg Winkler, a pioneer in such climbing, made a number or impressive climbs, including the first ascent in 1887 of the eastern Vajolet Tower, a year before his death at the age of 18 during a solo attempt of the Weisshorn. Many climbers in later years were to emulate Winkler and reject the use of ropes and aid, even though he himself used a grappling hook on occaision. Footwear evolved from heavy spiked boots to ligher felt-soled shoes developed by the Simond Firm, opening a new era of free climbing with leaders who morally opposed reliance on gear. Paul Preuss, a vocal and influential Austrian, vigorously denounced the use of pitons and rope manuevers as a lower standard. He wrote six climbing rules: 'First, one shoud not only be equal to any climb that one undertakes, but be more than equal to it. Second, the standard of difficultly which a climber can conquer with safety when descending, and for which he can consider himself competent with an easy conscience, should represent the limit of what he should attempt on his ascent. Third, hence the use of artificial aids only becomes justifiable in the case of sudden threatening danger. Fourth, the piton is an emergency aid and not the basis of a system of mountaineering. Fifth, the rope may be used to facillitate the matters, but never as the sole means to make a climb possible. Finally, the principle of safety is one of the highest principles. Not the spasmodic correction of one's own want of safety, obtained by the use of artificial aids, but that true safety which should result, with every climber, from a just estimate of what he is able to, and what he desires to do." The word from the original old school. Sounds to me like Preuss is calling you a candy-ass if you need to rely on a rope and/or pitons in any fashion whatsoever during your ascent. Moreover, sounds like the anti-bolting camp will have two eschew the use of both if they wish to live up to the ethics established by Preuss. This guy set the bar higher and paid the ultimate price for it. "Preuss died at age 27 while attempting to solo the north face of the Manndlkogen. It was an era when not many of the top climbers made it to thirty. Perhaps the new safety methods had some merit after all." [ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: JayB ]

"I nominate me " I second the motion. The captain rocks the hizzouse...

As long as we're on the subject....Yankee Doodle Lake, CONovember 28, 20012 backcountry skiers caught, 1 buried and killed (drowning?)Provisional Report -- Report subject to change as more information is learned. Date & Time: November 28, at approximately 1300 hrs. LocationYankee Doodle Lake, East side of Rollins Pass, Front Range, approximately 3.5 miles west of the Eldora ski area. Elevation: 11,300 feet, at timberline Aspect: Southeast (120 degrees) Slope Angle: 34 to 36+ degrees Avalanche DataThe avalanche was classified as HSAS3O/G (hard slab, artificial-skier trigger, medium size, running on old snow/ground). The crown (fracture line) was 2 to 5 feet, and 400 feet wide. About half way down the slope the avalanche was funneled to a width of 223 feet. The avalanche released from a southeast-facing slope and fell 600 vertical feet and stopped by crashing through the 10-inch thick ice of Yankee Doodle Lake. The displaced water resulted in a surge 10-12 feet tall along the south shore. The snowpack at the crown was uniform and hard (pencil) except at the ground. The bottom 2 inches consisted of soft (4 finger hardness), loose, beginning faceted (sugar snow). In places along and immediately below the crown was old summer snow or neve. (We were not able to safely approach the neve. There is a possibility this "old" snow is not neve but is more recent snow (October) that developed a hard melt-freeze crust.) Contributory weather factorsWeather data is still being collected. An estimated 12 inches of new snow fell in the area between November 23 and 28. "Heavy blowing snow" was reported at Eldora Mountain Resort on the night of November 26/27. The morning of the 28th dawned sunny. Accident SummaryEarly Wednesday afternoon two local Boulder-county men were skiing the open slope above Yankee Doodle Lake when they triggered a sizable hard-slab avalanche. The avalanche struck the ice-covered lake and shattered the ice, dumping both men into the water. The pair were skilled and avalanche-savvy backcountry skiers who were well-equipped for a day in the mountains. One man died (drowned?). His friend escaped, but unable to find his missing partner, he hiked back to the Eldora ski area to get help. This was the men's third day in a row on this slope where two days earlier they had enjoyed terrific powder skiing. Before starting their descent the pair dug a snow pit. Apparently satisfied with what they had found, they agreed to ski short distances one-at-a-time, taking turns watching each other while the other would wait at a "safe" spot. The first man (survivor) skied a short distance to flatter-bench area and traversed toward some rocks to avoid a much steeper cliff area. He glanced back over his shoulder and spotted his friend who had just started down. He then realized the entire slope was moving. The avalanche left both men in Yankee Doodle Lake. The survivor ended up nearly in the middle of the lake approximately 190 feet from shore. Packed in shattered ice and water he struggled to the shore. Yells for his friend brought no response and he could not detect a signal from his friend's avalanche beacon. His waterlogged cell phone did not work, so he set out for help. He hiked down the Jenny Creek trail the 5 miles to Eldora Mountain Resort. RescueThe Eldora Ski Patrol responded first followed by members of the Rocky Mountain Rescue Group. Arriving as darkness fell the hasty search was organized. Searchers tried to detect a beacon signal but could not, so probe poles were used to search likely burial areas. More rescuers arrived including avalanche rescue dogs. The rescuers could not search the shattered ice and water until later that evening when trained dive-rescuers arrived with specialized rubber suits. After 2300 hours that evening a dive-rescue team member searching the refreezing surface detected a signal. The missing man was found 91 feet off shore in the frozen snow, ice and water. CommentsThese men were smart and savvy backcountry skiers who were doing things by the book yet still got into trouble. At the time of the accident (and in the days before the accident) we were rating the backcountry avalanche danger in all mountain areas at CONSIDERABLE. Triggered avalanche releases were probable, and natural avalanches were possible on NW to NE to SE facing-slopes near and above tree line. The avalanche the men triggered occurred on an ESE to SE facing-slope at tree line. Before rushing to judgment, remember both men were backcountry and avalanche smart. They had the right equipment and knowledge to be out in the terrain, snow, and weather conditions. Boulder County Sheriff George Epp said it well in the Daily Camera newspaper (11/30/2001, page 5A) when he was quoted "If you try to get a lesson out of this...the mountains can be dangerous no matter how prepared you are." This is the first Colorado avalanche death in Colorado in the 2001-2002 winter, and second in the United States. Incidents where avalanche victims are swept into water and drowned uncommon but not unheard of. In 1978 at Twin Lakes, California, a county snowplow and a pickup with two occupants were swept into the unfrozen Lower Twin Lake. The snowplow operator swam to shore. Twenty minutes later a motorist stopped by the earlier avalanche climbed on to the debris where he was caught by a second avalanche and swept into the lake. All three motorists drowned. In 1981, near Elko, Nevada, a snowmobiler was caught and swept into an ice-covered lake and drowned. Atkins 11/30/01

"In the Garden of the Gods you can carve your intitals in the rock with your finger after it rains. Even some guidebooks say not to climb there until days after rain because the rock is so fragile." True enough. Even if you were weren't concerned about preserving the rock, the concern that most of us have for conserving our asses would keep us off the rock for a couple of days after a good rain. The place is scary enough with shiznit cracking off even when it's bone dry in my opinion. It hadn't rained for a couple of weeks prior to our climb but the sweat pouring out of my unchalked palms on a wicked hot day may have caused some fairly significant erosion. That's one of the funny things about the place - one of the few crags around where the ratings get stiffer over time instead of the other way around, as once crisp crimpers mutate into dry-heave inducing half-pad slopers with enough traffic. That, and the fact that I have yet to get a camcorder and/or one of those waist-belt pouch deals, lead me to climb elsewhere if I can...

I want someone to start selling avy-charges or a carbon-fiber avy mortar over the net so as to avoid having to deploy the avy ball. "When you've dug your pits and set your beacons and your still not sure about the slope...it's time for the BC Access Porta-Mortar....:

Just an update on the BD letter. I got a response from someone there a day or two after I sent the e-mail acknowledging my letter, and they've promised to send a reply responding to the statement in my letter shortly. No word on whether or not they'll be okay with me posting their response to this site, but if they are I'll be sure to share it with everyone. I just hope that my letter will not jeopardize my efforts to secure a sponsorship from those fellows. I even had an original pitch for them, to the effect of "Many potential customers have expressed reservations about purchasing your high end gear, fearing that the combination of pricy high-end gear and low-end skills will make them look like a bunch of weak-ass yuppie posers who read into thin air too many times. However, I've overcome any such reservations and by way of example that it's okay to combine the high-end tools of a hardened alpinist with the skills of a pretty low-end weekend hack. Once they see me out there with a pair o' Cobras and some Bionics they'll know that it's okay and your sales volumes will skyrocket. So much so that you can sell the stuff here at Euro prices and still turn a profit..."

Beats me.

One of the of the primary objections I’ve heard to placing bolts from those opposed to the practice is that it permanently modifies the rock. Sure, other points have been made about respecting the style of the first ascencionists, not bringing the rock down to your own level and many others which I agree with. However, after reading several posts on the subject my mind turned to a group of sandstone formations about two miles south of my house – the Garden of the Gods. The primary occupants of the park are mini-van driving denizens of the plains (Kansas et al), sporting prosthetic camcorders, leather-pouch-belt thingies, and enough adipose tissue to keep a candlemaker in business for weeks, but there’s some quality climbs to be had there as well. When a friend came out for a visit, we headed up a moderate trad climb by the name of “New Era.” We climbed the whole thing without so much as laying a hand on the scarce fixed gear on the climb ( a couple of mank, rusty, fatigued baby angles placed in the hemp rope era and one ¼ inch bolt with a home-made super-jingus aluminum hanger) as you can just sew the thing up with gear. The pro’s a bit more sparse on the second pitch but it’s certainly there. We topped out and got some mad props from some the omni-present German tourists whose bus stopped so that they could marvel at the prowress we displayed on this stout 5.7 testpiece. Prior to reading the proliferation of anti-bolting posts on this site I would have rapped down with a clear conscience and a light heart, but now my experience has been forever compromised. For although I had not so much as layed a hand on the fixed gear present on this climb (which was presumably placed on lead by men climbing with wafflestompers and hemp ropes so it’s ethically sound hardware – phew!) I had PERMANENTLY MODIFIED THE ROCK (shudder) during my climb. I took a non-standard start on some gritty, chossed-out quasi crack to the left of the actual start and broke off at least two holds with my feet in the first 20 feet of the climb. But my sins were far from complete. Every time I touched the rock I displaced a few grains of sand with my fingertips, and who knows what horrors I inflicted upon it’s fragile tableu with my size 11 shoes with each foot placement. And oh the toll my skin oils will take upon the rock when they commingle with the delicate silicates that hold the whole thing together! What’s one to do? Even eschewing the rest of the rudiments of the modern technology that have hitherto prevented me from having truly met the rock “on its own level,” such as cams, nuts, tape, shoes, and clothing and climbing the thing as naked as a baboon will not save me, for even so much as a gentle, chalk-free crimp will forever alter the rock! Despite driving an internal combustion vehicle, using electric-power at home, using pro smelted from ore that was surely mined from the earth somewhere and a rope derived from refined petrochemicals etc, my heart recoils at the thought of modifying the rock in any fashion whatsoever. My dreams of ethical purity have been shattered, and now I question whether I can go on, for whatever I touch, even it it’s bullet granite, I will permanently modify. If that’s the bar which all ethically sound climbers must clear, I suspect I’ll have to abandon the sport.

Bronco - yup. Sporting the Oakley Razor Blade shades, a "No Fear" T-Shirt peeking out from beneath the flannel, and complemented by a righteous Billy Ray Cyruseque feather mullet to complete the ensemble. Maybe even some gaiters over the Lee Jean/white, rear entry, one-buckle ski boot interface zone for extra credit. Word.

I'm with hikerwa on this one. Whatever one may think of what's become of TNF, I'm glad that someone there took the time to let us know about what sounds like a cool slideshow - it's not their fault that their company got bought out by the same folks that brought us...err.. Lee Jeans. Hopefully the collective response on this site won't discourage them, or anyone else from doing so in the future. Either that or at least hope that they have a thick skin and a healhty sense of humore. Besides - have you seen the folks that hit the Slopes in their tight-assed Lee Jeans/Acid-Washed Levis Fleece-Lined Jacket/Blaze-Orange Camo Baclava combo? Spanaway Ski Club? That's hard core baby...How about a slide-show about them and their dogged determination to endur whatever the Cascades throw out them with only a thin layer o' denim to get them by. Make the rest of us look like a bunch a sissies