klenke

I agree with Iain. Non-climbin' city slickers really don't know how close mountain climbers come to losing their lives every time they go out (comparatively speaking). Even on class 2 terrain, there's nothing stopping us from taking a flying leap off a nearby cliff. Then there's rockfall and avalanches and bears and... Now though, fear in general and what it does or doesn't do for you or me is an esoteric thing. It all affects us somehow, but the effects are ineffable for the most part. It's just a feeling you get. Like trying to define the word love, which might be considered the antithesis of fear...except for those who fear love or love fear. Things I love: Things I fear:

What Steve said regarding being able to rap faster when you're wearing a glove is a good point. I never really thought about it, but that's got to be true. Although, I'm trying to remember if I've ever not worn a glove rappeling. Can't draw a conclusion without knowing what it's like both ways. Quote from Freedom of the Hills (6th Edition, page 137): "The question of whether to wear gloves when using a belay device has no easy answer. As noted earlier, your gripping ability is greater bare-handed than with most gloves. With the use of any standard belay device, a bare-handed belayer who is near average in gripping ability can easily stop the routine leader and follower falls that are common in rock-climbing areas. Furthermore, gloves can make your hands damp and soft, undesirable when it's your turn to climb. "On the other side, you may be required at any time to hold an extreme fall, the force of which can pull the rope through your hand. Heat buildup is quick; the sliding rope can burn your bare hand, causing you to drop the rope. Of course, gloves may be necessary to keep your hands warm in cold weather."

"Slippage of rope through the hand only occurs when the hand holding the rope runs into the device and stops." This is not entirely true. In my rope burn incident, my brake hand never abutted the belay device. Since my grip was relaxed and a sturdy brake was not being applied (I had my hand more in front of me than beside me thus less bend of the rope over the edge of the ATC), when the follower weighted the rope, it began to slide through both my ATC and my brake-hand simultaneously. The rope burn occurred in the fraction of a second when I began to apply pressure to the rope. It was kind of like those times when you grab for a rope-tow rope and it slides for a second before you gain a no-slip grip. After pressure was applied, then my hand may have moved down to the ATC. I don't remember.

Well, I have experienced rope burn, as I said. Although it has only happened once to me. In my case, the follower was out of sight and when he fell on slabby ground I was busy dealing with the lay of the paid-in rope with my non-brake hand (by reaching across to the braking side as we have all had to do). Even though I had my brake-hand on the rope, it was not firmly on the rope. My sorting concentration may have led to an unintentional reduction of brake pressure. Can't say for sure. In the end, only about 1 foot of rope went through my palm but it was enough to give me rope burn. The weather was nice and the rope was new, as I recall; so the rope had a greater amount of roughness to it. Dirt/mud had not yet smoothed its sheath.

Apart from commenting on the incorrectness in word-usage regarding this sentence "I've always eschewed gloves while belaying (and rapping, for the same reason), but I wonder if this is really considered necessary.", my two cents are: 7 times out of 10 I wear gloves while belaying and this largely depends on what the leader is doing (how difficult his/her lead is). If he/she's doing a rock climb pitch on class 5, I generally wear gloves. Class 4 maybe (depending on long fall exposure). Class 3 probably not. While rappeling, I always wear gloves unless, of course, I've forgotten them. I don't like the idea of having to stop myself with my bare hand(s) from careening down a rappel site if I lose control--especially if I'm upside down. Often, I'll only wear a belay glove on the brake hand. My reasoning for wearing gloves: rope burn and avoiding the dirtying of my hand(s). I've experienced mild rope burn on a mild leader fall and even this hurt like a son-of-a-gun for a long time afterward (like hours afterward). I don't want to experience the burning of a big leader fall. Another reason to wear a brake-hand glove is that it is easier to let some rope feed through your closed palm to lower a leader, give slack, etc.

Dead band guy or banded dead guy or guy who's band is dead or ... You think it's bad now, you wait a few years to see how this site has progressed in its liberal assessment of what is acceptable/not acceptable. Damn man, I know I sure am glad this site exists. Remember the dark ages when we all had ulterior lives? Now, this website rules our lives.

RobBob, Here's what I know from memory: the day of the year for the Northern Hemisphere that has the least amount of sunlight is coincident with the December winter solstice. However, sunrise continues to move forward in the morning after the winter solstice for a number of days until some physical quantities match up. I don't remember what these quantities are. That may be what you lost the bet concerning. So I did a little searching on the web, and this is what I found: Take the quiz: http://www.jgiesen.de/Quiz/day/ Or read this technical stuff: http://www.sciencenet.org.uk/database/Physics/9812/p01298d.html {It looks like I was on the right track with my memory, though not certain of myself.}

...like I said. But that's alright cuz the thread has run its course.

" There is such a thing as too much beta " Yeah, here's a case in point for your signature quote: what does your post have to do with this thread? We're talking about the solstice here, not England and France's historical dislike for each other.

Yes, Steve F., you are correct. What I said is technically still true. However, the north pole's entire night lasts from the autumnal equinox to the vernal equinox. That's what happens when you define things off the top of your head. I knew there was probably some error somewhere in my definition. Mistakes happen, are corrected, and are soon forgotten.

A solstice is the exact time when a ray from the sun striking the earth's surface reaches its farthest point north or south of the equator. For our winter solstice, this is the time when this ray (making a perpendicular impact on the surface) reaches its farthest point south of the equator. This line of latitude is called the Tropic of Capricorn and is 23.5 degrees south of the equator. From the autumnal equinox until the winter solstice, the ray progresses southward from the equator to the ToC and from the winter solstice to the vernal equinox (spring equinox), the ray progresses back to the equator, eventually crossing it. The reason the northern hemisphere day is the shortest at the winter solstice is due to 3-D geometry. Essentially, to be concise, at the winter solstice, the most possible bulk of the earth blocks the rays of the sun from hitting northern hemisphere points. The amount of blockage (thus amount of daylight) is dependant on the latitude of the point. For points above the Arctic Circle, the sun's rays are wholly blocked by the bulk of the earth for a duration of the time between equinoxes and is dependant upon the latitude above this circle. That is, there is no daylight at all for a duration of this half-year. At the north pole, there is no sunlight at all from the autumnal equinox all the way to the vernal equinox (roughly 182 days). Comprende?

Drinking that beer at the car after another successful ascent. This was especially the case after knocking off Jack Mountain (see: http://www.sverdina.com/images/jack1/jack22.jpg )

According to this website: http://www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html#1999 "Winter solstice for 2002 will occur at 5:14 pm PST on December 21. If you want to be precise about it, please be sure to correct for your time zone." And this site gives upcoming solstice dates and times: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/EarthSeasons.html Note: Universal Time is the same thing as Greenwich Mean Time.

There ought to be a USGS-named CHOSS MOUNTAIN out there somewhere which would require that you travel up Shit Creek for the approach (with or without a paddle in hand).

Jake, Some do Fortress from Buck Creek Pass. It's a long day going that way. I have not been that way myself. I climbed Fortress from below Chiwawa Mountain. I think the approach is a little shorter going this way but the upper reaches of Fortress' east side are looser and harder to climb than the SW side. Basically, I took the Chiwawa River Trail 3.5 miles to where it forks. The left fork stays in the forested valley. I have no idea about going this way. It could work. The right fork goes up to Red Mountain's west side. I took this trail all the way to where it makes a steep incline upward (toward an old mine?) to the right. This is about 7 miles from the car. Basically, at this point you can see you need to leave the trail to cross a small basin to get to terraces at the south foot of Chiwawa. There are numerous streams and waterfalls cascading through here. From these terraces, the idea is to traverse west around the base of the South Ridge of Chiwawa. Once around the base, you want to continue traversing over to Fortress by staying as high as possible (probably on snowfields or snowpatches). If you traverse too low, you'll run into up and down ravines, canyons, rock walls and the like. Trust me, you want to stay high. Eventually after 1.5 miles of cross-country travel from the terraces, you'll get to the ESE side of Fortress. From there, DON'T go up the East/ESE Face (super loose, steep, and sandy ledges). Instead, go to the East Ridge crest to the right and follow it (mostly class 3) until it steepens. Find a short 10-ft class 4 chimney to get up to the summit area of the peak. Scramble easy blocks to the true summit. You can reverse your path back or go down the SW side for the return (if doing it in a day from Trinity). If you want to see some pics of this side of Fortress, send me an email at klenke@attbi.com. See attachment for partial topo of area.

The Mt. Si Trail: totally choss-free class 1 climbing (except for the Haystack). I highly recommend it to everyone. What a great climb! Man I'm going to go back as much as possible. Beware of the golden retriever that lives on the trail. Wild beast of the North Bend stock.

The Cascades are clear today (great views from Seattle) and I would expect them to be more or less the same tomorrow. Low valley fog is possible--especially in Eastern Washington. I wouldn't worry about that MOSTLY CLOUDY forecast. A good place to fly over would be the Boston Glacier. Everyone knows it's big, but it probably looks even bigger from the air. Or try the Chikamin Glacier area on the north side of Dome Peak. Heck, fly over it all if you can manage enough gas.

Could this be worthy of your scrutinizing eye: http://www.sverdina.com/images/rainier3/dcnew06.jpg ?

What have I learned here? I have learned that Forest Service rangers don't necessarily have a clue. This time, I called the National Park. The Mather Memorial Parkway IS open between Cayuse Pass and the North (White River) Entrance to the park. However, the road to Fryingpan Creek, White River Campground, and Sunrise is closed at the Y (i.e., at the MM Parkway junction).

I called the Enumclaw R.S. last Wednesday. The person there told me the Mather Memorial Parkway between Cayuse Pass and the North (White River) Entrance to the park is closed. Therefore, getting to trailheads like Fryingpan Creek and White River means foot (or bike) travel on roads. A lot of extra mileage. Probably best to go somewhere else to have a good time.

Taint much snow up there. Taint much at all. Was up on a Spark Plug Mountain (6,311') on Sunday. This is up near Stevens Pass. Snow started showing up around 4,400 ft. By 5,000 ft it was pretty constant but crusty stuff (maybe 1 foot deep). By 5,800 ft it was maybe 2 feet deep but still extremely crusty and hard to break through. At the 6,300-ft summit, we were actually sitting on dirt. Terrain looked like it would in September. NE and N facing slopes have a very light snow pack (e.g., you can still see the rocks of the NE and N facing talus fields). All other faces are 80% snow-free (shaded places typically contain snow though). All in all, unless you'll be doing steep terrain, there is no need for crampons or ice-axe. Good stuff. And the air quality will be so much better than the Puget Sound!

Looking at all those Dru posts always makes me dizzy.

Another nice pic from the SSE with Tower Mountain in it: http://www.sverdina.com/images/libertybell1/beckey_route07.jpg (The peaks in view are, L to R, Mt Hardy, Jack Mountain, Golden Horn, Azurite Peak (peeking), and Tower Mountain)

That's cool: a barefoot rock climber. I bet toe jams (no, not THAT kind of toe jams) are difficult.

Some images showing Tower Mountain... From the southwest: http://www.sverdina.com/images/black1/black01.jpg (the peak in the background) From the northwest: http://www.sverdina.com/images/jack1/jack14_1.jpg (the second peak from the right; the first peak on the right is Golden Horn)