Don_Serl

ice is in excellent shape at the rambles today (thursday feb 19); see TR... it'll be a great weekend, is my bet. i'll be there... cheers,

Climb: rambles (duffey lake road)-left and centre Date of Climb: 2/19/2004 Trip Report: had to suss out the rambles in detail for the guide, so spent the day up there with briang. climbed all tiers on central rambles, rapped out, then scooted up the lower left (did both left and right steps at top of lower section) and plugged up snow to top left tier. the main flow has gone discontinuos at top, where it drops over the two rock overhangs, but there is a 2-abalakov station set at the top of the 15m of fine ice beneath that. backed the threads up with a screw after leading the column (gr4-), and TR'ed the hell out of the hard, direct stuff (and the mixed) on the left side. a really fun day. ice overall was very compliant, with a tendancy to surface plating (i think because it's still forming thick layers each nite). it was warm enuf that the surface snow was getting sticky and some pinwheels were forming, but most of the ice was only damp, not running. it'll freeze again hard at nite for the foreseeable future. it was 0ºC overnite in lillooet last nite, and the forecast is 4 days of about the same; high was +7ºC today in lillooet (maybe +2ºC at the rambles), with the next 4 days about the same. the season is a LONG way from over - fact is, the ice is just getting fatter and more plastic. cheers,

dru, sorry about misleading you. i was going by the map, and had not fully sorted the area out in my head from the '98 CAJ article. 'wishful thinking' is marked at the outflow of the creek - it shld be in the alcove/corner just left of the toe of the ridge [about 1cm further N on the map than it is shown]. we drove out monday with jia, and he was clear the the righthand-most route was the one he and miller did. and 'el nino' shld be marked on the map where 'wishful thinking' lies. which leaves the little column unclimbed. jia did a brilliant job on a new mixed line at the upper rambles, btw. 'no, really': 25m M7 WI5R. up a bit, then traverse right 10m from the top of the snow ( 1 bolt) to a 2 bolt station. dry tool the seam (2 bolts, crux), hook the ice into the alcove (#3 camalot), then climb the very-much-steeper-than-it-looks exit ice (poor short and medium screws). i didn't have the power to pull the crux hooks, but eventually managed to kinda-climb, kinda-get towed up it; polish bob JUST stuck it... effing hard! a good way to end the weekend! cheers,

i've stayed at the 4 Pines a lot more than at Mile 0 over the years, partially cuz it was cheaper, partially cuz it seemed to have more "lillooet character". if u stay in the "old" wing, the "climbers rate" (ask for it...) is only $38 for 2, $44 for 3. the room are smaller than at Mile 0, and the bed arrangements vary wildly, from a dbl plus single, to 3 singles, to 2 doubles. ask what's available. some rooms are non-smoking, some not - the odour doesn't bother me, so i just take whatever if they are crowded, which is rare. a cpl rooms have fan-type heaters, good for drying. the hot-water tank is way off at one end of the building, and the pipes must not be well insulated, so u gotta run the taps for a minute to get a hot shower, but i've never experienced lack of hot water. the "new" wing is $10 more. dru cld clarify whether all the new rooms have the jacuzzi arrangement, or whether that's $10 more again. i've been in there once, and it was nice - better than Mile 0, i'd say. i've dumped myself into the Mile 0 a few times this winter cuz that seemed to be the best place to hang out with others - the rooms are nicer than the "old" wing at 4 Pines, but i've put in about 8 nites this winter so far, and that's a fair few $$$ difference to put towards my bar-tab. HRoack: i'd suggest phoning the management about your issues. they don't read this site, i'd guess. i can see the thermostat thing being OK if you're not drying gear during the day, but the cleaning lady should be told to leave it at 20ºC if there is gear strewn around. as for the lack of hot water, again, if customers complain, the management will have to react or lose customers. i have a hard time imagining they actually turn down the temp on the water tanks (that probably wastes more energy on re-heating than leaving it alone wld do), so maybe the problem is that the tanks are just too small. give 'em a call and let us know what the response is... cheers,

in reasonable weather/road conditions, lillooet is only 2 hrs from whistler, so the entire duffey lake road climb-set qualifies. the rambles are probably only 1 1/2hrs from whistler (65km E of the mount currie turnoff on hwy 99). cheers, don

i don't usually "spray" but in this context i gotta pass along a GREAT reynolds story: a few of us were sipping after climbing a few weeks back, and i wandered into the men's room to make room for more liquid. now the urinal in the bar in the reynolds is a long metal trough, eh, about maybe 2 feet off the ground, a dozen feet long, and say 18 inches deep. as i come in the door, there's a young local native guy kinda slumped against the wall at the far end of the urinal, on his feet and with his equipment still in use, but not completely aware. my arrival disturbs him, his head snaps up, he gives me a glance and gives himeself a shake, then says, "jeez, i just about fell asleep there." "christ, you're pretty talented", says i, "i thought only horses could sleep standing up". he pauses a second, doesn't reaaly respond to this, then comes back with, "lucky the water was cold!" god, i laughed. almost pissed myself... enjoy the upcoming gathering...

So, no official "Festival", but a "Gathering of the Tribes", Saturday nite, Feb 7th, at the Legion on Main Street in Lillooet, starting 7:30 to 8 p.m. There is an Interior darts competition at the Hall earlier on Saturday, so there still may some of those folks around as we get started - more's the merrier, I guess. They play with sharp things too... Please drop a buck or two in the pot on the way in to pay for the hall rental. Beer's available from the bar. It's a "private function", so if some people could bring chips n salsa, nuts, H/C, whatever, we can have snacks - stuff is available from the bar too. We have a slide projector coming with a couple empty carousels, plus a screen, so we can have an "open screen" session once things get rolling. Please keep it down to a dozen or so slides each so nobody gets bored. There'll be about 90 darts competitors in town, so you'd be advised to book a room soon: Mile 0: 1-888-766-4530 4 Pines: 1-800-753-2576 Reynolds Hotel: 1-877-655-5506 Hotel Victoria: 250-256-4112 Jay-Gee: 250-256-7525 All except the latter are conveniently located to eliminate any need for drinkin' 'n drivin' from the Legion. Come equipped with your biggest lies! See you all there! Please pass this info along to anyone who might be likely to come. Cheers,

jan 17-18? whew! i don't know where that came from. feb 7-8!!!

hello all, this is bullshit. i do not accept this outcome. who are we, a bunch of "victims", subject to the whims of what someone else does or does not do? not me! i insist on being in more control of my destiny than that. and i happen to think this insistence on control is an important part of an "ice climbing" attitude; there is too much danger in the sport to NOT approach it with a mind-set of maintenence of personal control. mr. shulmann, who is a community booster, not an ice climber, did as good a job as he could trying to carry on lyle's tradition, and i have no wish to "bash" him. he has gotten overwhelmed and has allowed the organization of a formal ice festival to collapse this year. so be it! the original idea, and the "meat" of previous fests, was getting together with a bunch of other ice climbers, talking about climbs and other adventures, drinking beer, watching a few slides, and generally celebrating our crazy sport. the demos, the guiding, the instruction, the presentations from "heros" of the sport were all nice, but not "core". i think the reason the ice festival has collapsed is that it got to be too much, too big, too organizationally challenging. screw that. let's just have fun! there is a solution: i declare a GATHERING of ice climbers in lillooet this weekend, february 7-8. everyone is responsible for their own accomodation, food, climbing arrangements, etc. i believe we can rent the legion hall for saturday evening - this will not be confirmed till monday, but it seems as if it's available, and i understand it's only $75 - if we all pop a couple bucks into a pot on the way in, the cost'll easily be covered. provided we can rent it, the folks who run the place will more than happy to serve us all the beer we can afford. i reckon we can talk a person or two into bringing a slide projector up, we can find a screen, and we can have an "open screen" session for a while. any body who wants, bring a dozen slides, let's see what people have been up to. but let's concentrate on circulating, not being entertained by someone. that's what TV is for... even if the legion is NOT available, let's take over one of the bars! drunken karaoke, anyone? more tomorrow. and see you all in lillooet this weekend! cheers,

dru's posting of the weather for lillooet provides a perfect opportunity to put lillooet townsite temperatures in context with temps at the routes. the dry adiabatic lapse rate (the rate at which dry air cools when its pressure is lowered at higher altitude) is close to 10ºC/1000m. fully saturated air cools at only 5.5ºC/1000m. 'average' atmospheric lapse rate is about 6.5ºC/1000m [3.5ºF/1000 ft]. except for honeyman, etc and the seton lake climbs, most stuff around lillooet is significantly higher than town: *** lillooet lies just below 300m *** marble canyon is at 800m, thus might be expected to be about 3-4ºC cooler. but M/C is also more 'interior', therefore generally colder; plus the air has dried out after passing over the coast mtns, so the lapse rate is closer to the dry figure. i reckon M/C runs 6-8ºC cooler than lillooet. *** oregon jack experiences the same interior benefits, and is at nearly 1200m. temps are probably 8-10ºC below lillooet. *** the valley bottom on the duffey lake road lies between about 550m [synchronicity] and 750m [rambles] in the ice climbing areas. many of the routes lie 200m or more up the hillside. the air tends to be fairly saturated except in arctic outflows. expect typical temps 3-5ºC colder than lillooet. *** phair creek climbs lie between about 800m [just walkin' the dog] and 1200m [phairwell to arms], so are 3-6ºC colder than town. too bad it's so sketchy to get there! *** the bridge river valley lies at between 500m [old dogs, new picks] and 600m [tezaghi dam]. the air is drier than the duffey, but not fully interior dry. expect temps about 2-4ºC colder than lillooet. luckily many of the 'big' routes (capricorn, night 'n gale, shriek of the sheep) are way up at 1100m or 1200m, so experience temps about 6ºC colder than lillooet. too complex? simple rule: drop 5ºC off the town temp to reckon climb temp... cheers,

good one, dru. hint: science will help... cheers,

dru, janez and i walked down past the waterfall that forms "hangin on a heartbeat" while descending from an unplanned night out after climbing YBR and missing the correct descent in the dusk (a warm nite beside a fire... well, for janez at least) the waterfall is in the "north gully" [see central BC rock, p124]. i seriously doubt the 120m figure, but it's a lot bigger than a single 60m pitch, and it falls fully free [like, waaaay out from the wall] for about half its height. thought provoking! cheers,

marble canyon is doing fine: *** 1st pitch icy BC very wet, but 2nd fat, fat, fat. *** no deductible has gone lean. *** deeping wall mostly wet; direct finish pretty fat. *** waite for spring would require an extremely bold leader for the initial 6m-8m, then OK. *** the dihedral is in fine. *** dale's route is fully do-able, but a reeeeally challenging serious lead, so if u TR it, pls be gentle so u don't ruin it for those who want the thrill. *** body shop fat. *** 3rd tier icy BC fat but heavily chandeliered. *** fender bender climbable (hard) and dry. *** air care looks like junk (too bad, maybe it will fill). cheers,

captn, nice photo, tks. get any from lower on the pitch? was great to finally put a face to the name. u too, iceguy. and tks for the juicy words - u got a reputation to keep up, man. plus THE legend himself! what a turnout! too bad u missed calgary getting whomped sat nite. body shop was gr5 for sure, no way it's a 6 (i don't think i can lead that hard). that's doing it the easiest way (generally a good plan): good stemming and good pro on the left for the 1st half, then on the right for the top half (pro-ing the tree, with a cpl screws to protect the exit). have to call it 5+ to pull the front the whole way - it's pretty damn steep, and the ice wasn't all that good on the face of the column. it could easily have been 6 when tom (and/or others) did it, if it were way narrower the way dru describes. daler's photo looks medium-fat; i've seen it much leaner. which brings up the interesting discussion of how to grade these things. the grade is supposed to be the 'technical' grade, dealing with the difficulty of movement, but in the real world the whole PITCH gets graded, so length, the pump factor, the difficulty of setting a bunch of screws on a long hard pitch, drag, weight, etc come into it. that seems fine, and more informative to people interested in the grade, but i'm convined there is a lot of ice out here on the coast that is "technically" gr 6, but that gets "5" or "5+" cuz the pitches aren't big, heinous things like u find in the rockies. tom bridge went against that trend, and if he felt it was 6 technically, he called it so. i followed a cpl of his "6's", and they were certainly WAY hard technically (mister freeze, in particular stands out in my mind) - but do they stand as "6's" in the new edition of the guide? i don't see why not, personally... opinions? daler, when did u do side street? with whom? and did u u just tool the break, or was there ice on the wall below at all? and when/with whom did u do "dale's route" [far left, lower tier, marble canyon]? janez, graeme, and i climbed that earlier saturday, and i thought it was a REALLY hard lead (by janez, not me): very delicate foot- and axe-work to not knock everything down, dubious pro once you're off the "dihedral" column, tricky tool placements to get up under the roof, a hard physical pull thru the overhang, a vertical pump to get gear above the roof. very full value indeed! [maybe PM me the details, if u prefer?] we climbed closet secrets on sunday, in very exciting shape too. only gets gr4, but there'd be a lot of gr5 leaders who'd be backing off the crux on the 1st pitch - pretty thinly iced, and dubious pro. there's a bolt to protect the exit of the crux, but u gotta get there... what a superb location! the closet is just awesome, and with shreddie hanging in the background, it's just a joy to be there, all day. good ice, guys. the warm weather dropped a few things (most notably the approach pitches to synchronicity), but stuff is still "in" really well, in general. cheers,

paul, for sure you have 'phair game' labelled correctly. lyle will have to comment on the others; they look right to me tho, and i think the 1st of the later two is 'it's only phair' - the 2nd may be unclimbed? cheers,

paul, so how was the driving on the phair creek access road? icy sections? chains req'd? or warm enuf to get away without? as for further conditions, dana lindahl and i drove the duffey to lillooet saturday 'scoping', decided it was too warm to bother staying, so drove all the way back. as for the scoping, we bashed up into likely gullies, but the whereabouts of 'the straw' and 'duffey's delight' remain mysteries. they for sure are NOT where the CAJ'96 description places them! *** we spoke to kai and geoff as they finished a day at the rambles with a group - apparently not too bad for wetness. *** from the road, the thin ice at the upper rambles looked melted out. *** shreddie is still there. *** carlsberg has been running; a few holes, and a cpl dirty spews where water has broken thru. dubious... *** the tube looked OK. *** lotsa ice on loose lady - wet, i imagine. *** tres burly fell down. *** synchronicity getting a bit eroded high up, but OK. *** all the whistler/pemberton ice is GONE! lotsa rain... i heard marble was quite wet. 1st pitch icy BC a vertical stream, 2nd pitch fat... top tier better than lower... night n' gale got climbed: not much snow on the approach (which makes it a bit of a slip-fest), but the ice was reasonably dry and in good shape. cooling some for the weekend, but no cold snap. cheers,

yup, my question too: where are 'duffey's delight' and 'the straw'? somewhere between 'loose lady' and 'synchronicity', in gullies above the highway. well hidden, it seems! deep throat is as drew describes: in the deep gully on the W side of the river, directly across from the sand depot, 21km from lillooet (seton river bridge) - cinnamon creek forestry rec site is 20km. 'the tube' is 500m N of that. [i.e. about 19km from lillooet, depending on your odometer - i've measured it at 18.6km, 18.9km, 19.2km, and 19.7km at different times in different vehicles - lyle gives it as 19.3km on his map.] btw, the only other errors that i've noted on lyle's map are that 'gung hai fat choi' and 'cutthroat' are reversed. GHFC is the part ice, part rock line in a recess about 300m-400m N of deep throat; CT is the system of drips that virtually never comes in on the overhanging wall 300m-400m S. wish i cld afford a heliflight - probably quite a lot out there to discover... only lyle knows... cheers,

dru, quibble away! that's how errors/facts get sorted out. i've re-read further, and i withdraw my suggestion that the steps we climbed were duffey's delight. what that leaves them (as far as earlier ascent history) remains uncertain. if you believe john chilton's extensive report in CAJ'96 (and mostly i do), the route high up opposite synchronicity is 'mixing with mike'. e.g.: *** "About 14km west of Lillooet, 500m up on the south side of the highway directly across from Synchronicity." [precisely correct; actually, the high point parking on the road is at 14.7km] *** 1st pitch "a dagger", 40m Gr4+ (not in on 1st ascent, therefore the "mixing" comment...); 2nd pitch 40m Gr4; 3rd pitch 50m Gr3. [i've not had the pleasure of flailing all the way up to climb the route, but that fits exactly the view from the road.] according to the same article, both 'the straw' and 'duffey's delight' are between synchronicity and loose lady, the former "a nice pillar 150m up the hillside" [35m Gr4] "about 15km west of Lillooet", the latter involving "crampons a few steps from the road", "200m of mostly low-angle ice", then "75m of WI3" and "50m... of WI4", lying "a kilometer past The Straw" [125m WI4]. lyle spent a bunch of time looking for these routes, and i've driven that stretch of road a few dozen times, always peering into every gully between loose lady and the 'mixing with mike' high point, all to no avail. as i hear it from lyle, johnnie's memories of the locations had understandably faded by the time he (lyle) was researching the map a decade after the routes were done. i reckon the only way to end the mystery is to tramp at least 200m up every gully between loose lady and mixing with mike, which i guess i'm gonna have to do sometime this winter. oh, joy! as for 'the tube', johnnie has it "just left of Wet Lady", which is absolutely correct if you consider 500m to be "just". i'm afraid "wouldn't it make more sense" seldom works in guidebook situations... more's the pity... p.s. now i REALLY want to hear from anyone who has climbed the steps left of the tube and/or anything in the 2km or 3km east of loose lady! ple-e-e-e-e-ase! cheers,

*** to fill in a bit more on dru's report, i think the xwisten steps (pronounced something like "hhh-wish-ten", if i got that correctly from carl in the vic on saturday nite) will turn out to be a popular outing - when it's cold, at least. there aren't many places around lillooet where u can climb a LOT of pretty moderate ice. the problem may be that the hillside is sunny, so the "pitches" will be wet quite a bit. plus the climb is hidden, so you have to walk up to see if it's in... the general locale is easy to place - 10km from the moha road junction, or about 4km from the bridge river bridge, there are 3 tight corners in succession - park at a gravel pit at the 2nd corner - there is a column visible on a face about 800m up the hillside, and the climb is hidden in the drainage left of this. just head uphill, keeping a bit left, eventually following outwash fans and then the creekbed. 45 mins to 1 hr to the 1st pitch. we traversed climbers-right across about 3 gullies (several hundred metres) before descending. there are cliffbands below if you drop too soon. *** sunday janez and i climbed the 2 steps 200m left (towards lillooet) from the tube. they were very poorly formed, with the 1st 8m column (25m pitch) accepting no pro whatsoever and the best pro on the second 12m column (30m pitch) being stringing half a dozen slings around the base of entire free-standing portion of the pillar about halfway up. pretty exciting. there was no evidence of a prior ascent at either the obvious tree right of the 1st pitch, or the tree left of the top, but can't imagine this feature being unclimbed, altho it forms very infrequently (i watch...). john chilton's description for "duffey's delight" in CAJ'96 p85 is pretty close to matching what we did, altho the lower drainage was mostly barren snow, not cramponable. anybody got any info? *** climbed at upper right rambles monday - what a superb area! tons of possibilities. and i'll add my voice to ade's in saying that a few more bolts would be appreciated, and rap rings too - most people are going to either rap off the main dihedral after 30m (2 preplaced abalakovs), or fail on the bolted M7 above, then have to lower out. also, there is only 1 bolt above the curtain just left of the main corner - what's THAT about? we climbed the curtain and the rib just to its left (both delicate 20m Gr5 pitches), and backed up the belay with a V-thread on some ice to the right of the bolt, but it wasn't the best set-up. in these really popular areas, it'd be nice if people got in the habit of carrying rap rings (or chucker carabiners) too. the V-threads get worn out pretty quickly, and even 7mm or 8mm around trees gets trashed before season is over. pray for cold - the ice'll take the warm weather for this week, but it needs to go cold again - this has been a great start - we don't want to lose it now! p.s. if u do the rib mentioned above, take yellow and red TCUs to protect the exit. and pls climb delicately so as to not knock the whole effing thing down... and TR somewhere else... cheers,

re: accident below synchronicity: sounds like the slip took place on the hillside, not on the ice. this is not overly surprising, cuz there is seldom much snow around lillooet, but the hillsides are steep, open, and get solidly frozen and pretty sketchy! i'll pass along a trick i use a lot when i'm climbing in the cayoosh and bridge: i wear an old pair of crampons to and from the climb. gives lots of security on slippy scree and frozen duff, plus useful on moderate creek ice, even with really dull points, provide you stamp. i think it takes less energy to get up to the routes too, cuz sometimes these a fair hump up from the valley. not necessary with sufficient snow cover, but good when it's relatively bare... cheers,

point #1: maybe the key point is that you CAN'T consistently and accurately rate waterfall climbs? despite the best efforts of guidebook authors and their "advisors" all over the world, and lots of time - and beer - spent by climbers arguing about the particulars of various routes, ice is SO variable that ANY grade is only going to be a guideline. and the guideline is set for "typical" conditions, whereas the day you are climbing the route it may be cold, brittle, thin, young, platey, chandeliered, streaming wet, baked out (i.e., generally fucked up); or it might be warm, well filled, mature, cleaned, picked out, firm - dream ice. in the latter case, the route will be a very soft tick for the grade and you'll come home feeling like a hero; in the former, you'll be backing off in fear of your life on a climb supposedly a grade and a half below your limit. to me, that's half the fun of ice climbing, never quite knowing what you're getting into. point #2: despite the above, climbers seem to want grades attached to routes. and those grades get established by discussions between climbers, and comparisons between routes. for instance, having climbed carlsberg in field, carl's berg on the duffey, deeping wall and the upper pitch on icy BC at marble all a bunch of times, i'm totally comfortable with all of them being called "5". they all offer about the same degree of physical, psychological, and technical challenge, most of the time. yup, the actual difficulty varies a fair amount during the season, but that's just ice. you wanna climb polar circus and enjoy yourself? do it in march, not december. this is not rock, on which the grade does not change ('cept if you choose to climb in the rain...); this is more akin to the mountains, wherein the "difficulty" and/or challenge changes all the time. point #3: i ask myself, why should any of this be a problem? or subject to passionate discussion? and it seems to me that the answer has to do with people trying to rely on a guidebook definition to "tell" them whether they can safely and competently climb a given route, rather than acting out of judgement and self-reliance. as a guidebook author, i don't view that as part of my job. i DO have a responsibility to pass along the most accurate information that is available to me, especially so that guidebook readers don't waste time walking up to things that are clearly "out of their league", but it's YOU that stands underneath the route when the approach is over, and it's YOU that decides whether to risk it or not, not me. that too is part of the appeal of ice climbing: it's a sport that doesn't allow for much self-delusion. you've either got it, or you don't. and the consequences of mis-judgement can be quite brutal. not much like the modern sport-climbing ethic of working a route till it's done - ditto modern "mixed" climbing. again, ice climbing is much more like mountaineering: complex, difficult, clear-minded, harsh, honest decision-making is called for. good, says i !!! have a nice winter... cheers,

author-ML-295779-ML- Post now in the Author Request Forum -t

West Coast Ice, published in 1993, sold out in the winter of 2002-3, so there is no ice climbing guidebook currently available covering SWBC. The second edition is now in preparation, to be ready for the 2004-5 season. If you have any information about climbs that have been done in SWBC in the last decade (especially information that has not been previously published as Ice Updates in the Canadian Alpine Journals), or corrections/clarifications/modifications to information that appeared in the first edition, please pass the info along. Photos will also be needed, so a note that you have photos available of certain climbs and/or action photos would also be great to receive. Thanks, and enjoy this fine season. The ice is better than it has been for half a dozen years, there have already been a few new routes done, and it seems certain lots more will get established before spring. Get out there! tks, cheers, dserl@telus.net 604-872-4244 or PM me from this site...

jay, good photos for inspiration. u mostly got it right. comments/clarification: *** synchronicity photo: that's synchrotron at left. *** old dogs photo: that's steristrip far left - all ice this year, except for the turf-tooling exit - exciting! *** michelmoon is michelmoon *** the "scary looking" thing is house of cards; FA tom bridge and greg white, dec'96; grade 6, of course. *** the gift and the theft are correctly identified *** ditto shriek cheers,

alex, re: link, i don't know. this is not my site; you'll have to contact the author. i don't know who is behind the site, but there is a contact listed on the webpage. e-mail him/her. in fact, quite a bit of the info is "borrowed" from West Coast Ice. (ditto the ice fest guide from 2003.) however, i don't really mind too much. #1, WCI is out of print, so there's an information vacuum; #2, i'm not writing guidebooks to get rich (although the publisher has more concern for cost recovery and income generation; this is not a hobby); #3, quite a bit of the info is lifted from other sources (Canadian Alpine Journal, bivouac.com, etc); #4, the "author" has been careful to provide pretty much just the facts (which are not copyright protected) and not my treatment of them; #5, i'm far more committed to being an ice climber than an author, and i sympathize with all ways of distributing info to fellow ice climbers; #6, in today's world, a "paper" publication as to "add value" in some way to compete with web-based info sources - which i reckon your washington guide does, and which i fully intend for WCI2 to do. most people probably still prefer to pack a book along to their motel room or vehicle passenger seat, but there will always be those who will download and print the cheapest source of info out there - and i empathize with them - i was young and broke once too! cheers,