Don_Serl

aaah, by the way, that's "Mountain Hardware", not Mountain Equipment Hardware. no connection with "Mountain Equipment Co-op" in Canada. cheers,

meganerd, agreed with the others; do the berg lake approach cuz it's WAY shorter. fact is, you can be bivvied on the rock shoulder at about 2600m-2700m, within 1-2 hrs walk of the schrund, in under 24hrs from vancouver. drive up overnite, walk in next morning, shrink the gonads crossing the outlet from berg lake, and hike up to the shoulder. get up early, climb the face, descend the kain, cross back thru robson-helmet col to your bivvy. reward yourself with single malt. re: N face in winter, those of you who saw barry's inspiring presentation at the vcr mtn film fest will recall he and big jim elzinga and jo jo (i think?) went in to attempt the emperor face in feb, but climbed the N face instead cuz it was -40C. spent the nite on top, i recall, i perfectly clear, calm, deadly cold weather. what a "cool" bivvy - in every sense of the word. cheers,

more re: AG's: Jay B: 1. as well as the AG, the technical grade for rock (free and aid) and ice is still provided, just as in the NCCS system. original NCCS used the "F" technical grades (F5, etc), but they've been supplanted by YDS (5.10a, etc). 2. an absolutely essential element of ANY grading system is debate (or, endless argument, as some would have it). the point of all grading systems is to communicate information about difficulty, challenge, commitment, risk, and so on amongst the climbing community. it takes a while to reach consensus, but - to me - this is to be embraced, not viewed as a source of frustration. you can't "define" what 5.10a is; you can only climb 5.9s and 5.10s and "learn" what 5.10a entails. and once you've "learned" that, you have an internal "benchmark" that allows you to climb another route and to say to yourself, "that's a 10a", or perhaps, "fuck, what a sandbag, that's WAYYY harder than 10a!" similarly with overall grades. Dru: you point out that a 5 pitch route out in backcountry garibaldi park probably shouldn't be TD-; fully agreed. but you can only make that judgement once you've climbed a few TD's, and have a "feel" for what TD entails. i find that the written descriptions of the "boundaries" of the grades which i distilled from european usage help (they do for me, anyway), but they are no substitute for route-to-route comparisons. and benchmarking... for instance: *** the "benchmark" AD alpine ice face is the northeast face of the courtes: 800m of 45d snow/neve, with easy access, minimal hazard, and an easy off. *** the "benchmark" AD alpine ice couloir is the whymper couloir on the verte: 550m 45d snow/ice with a 100m section of 55d; moderate glacial approach; descent via route; serious stonefall hazard unless you get up and down early. *** an "example" D alpine ice face is the north face of the obergabelhorn: 500m of snow/ice to 55d; longish but moderate glacial approach; relatively minor stonefall hazard; longish descent ridge, with some low 5th class downclimbing. *** the "benchmark" TD alpine ice face is the swiss route on the north face of the courtes: 800m of ice at 50d-55d, with a pitch of WI3 high up; easy approach and reasonable descent; significant stonefall hazard. *** the "benchmark" ED1 alpine ice face is the corneau-davaille on the north face of the droites: 1000m, ice to over 70d, some mixed to about 5.7, perhaps a few moves of A1; easy approach and descent, but serious stonefall hazard. barry blanchard in the latest "gripped" describes how john lauchlan made it seem do-able by describing it as climbing the north face of athabaska, then climbing takakkaw falls, then climbing cascade. brilliant! given these "standards" (and a few more to further illuminate the boundaries of each grade), it's not too hard for me to agree with the central couloir on joffre at D- (in the "D" range, but a little "light"). it's 350m of ice to 50d-55d, with minor moderate mixed to finish, not-too-difficult approach, a low-5th descent if you do a couple rappels, and not too hazardous. and so on... Josh K: i don't view this as change for change sake. there is serious confusion about what the NCCS grades "mean". maybe there's even conflict: is "IV" just a long day, or a pretty stout route, probably with mid 5th to maybe 5.10 rock, possibly some steepish ice, some hazard, a bit of difficulty in routefinding, maybe a bit of complication to get on and off, etc? if we call that TD, at least we know that it's ONE thing that's being described. the Alpine Grades have some advantages, and maybe they will catch on. or maybe not. they ARE going to be "in circulation" for the next decade, what with selkirks south and north, the SWBC alpine select, and waddington guides using them. time will tell... cheers,

dru, good work; great info. u said u didn't want to get into details, but what the hell... 1. the original start to the SE buttress lies left of the bottom section of "D2"; you can make the direct entry in winter i guess, but in summer u climb 2 or 3 pitches to about 5.8 straight up from about the middle of that snow-patch, then traverse left (easy) a couple hundred feet pretty much horizontally to the very bottom of the shadowed couloir. 2. the start of "K1" ought to continue horizontally right to the darker (bushy) grooves, then breaks straight up. then it moves out left from the crest just below where the angle of the ridge twists left, on the slab with the little white mark. picky, picky, eh... cheers,

this is very long; you've been warned... the NCCS overall grades were developed by leigh ortenburger and others in the early '60s, mainly based on experiences in the tetons. teton guidebooks of the time list the following considerations in determining the overall grade: length of route, time required, average and maximum difficulty, ease of escape or retreat, effects/hazards from weather, objective dangers, and "challenge or degree of commitment". ortenburger distrusts attempts to describe grades with words, which he correctly says are subject to different interpretations by different people, and says that gradings can ONLY be applied by climbing "example routes" and by comparing and correlating. in this way, consensus in the climbing community is reached, and a "grade" it established and generally accepted. the problem is that the NCCS overall grades soon began to be applied to pure rock-climbs, first in the valley, and then throughout north america. eventually (with a few exceptions) they lost most of their "overall-ness", and degenerated pretty much into indications of time required. the exceptions are the tetons (still) and the canadian rockies, where the NCCS roman numeral overall grades are to be interpreted as originally defined. (these are NOT the same as the rockies ice I-VI grades, by the way! ... which furthers the confusion!) otherwise, NCCS is "over" as an alpine overall grading system. thus the importation of the Alpine Grading system from europe. you can find good descriptions of the AG system in "alpine select", "selkirks south" and on pps 77-79 of the 2002 canadian alpine journal. i'll use the same system in the waddington guide (and, yes, it WILL be out soon; i'm hoping for may, latest...) my part in transposing the AGs from europe was small, but my scientific background led me to "analyze" about 80 routes from the alps to try to uncover the "typical" characteristics of a variety of components of each grade level in current european usage. there are very wide ranges of each component at any given grade, but a COMBINATION of "high content" of numerous components is certain to result in a high overall grade. it's kinda part analytic, part syncretic, distilled into "gut feel". as with the original NCCS grades, the only way to truly determine the grades is by DOING and comparing. climb; drink; brag; argue - perfect! finally, against the advice of ortenburger, i offer the distillation of what i found from my examination of the routes from the alps. a caution: the euros have trouble too: 1. alpine rock-climbs, especially in france, get overgraded because of high technical difficulty alone. we have attempted to "roll back" this distortion for our application here. the technical grade already tells you how difficult the climbing is; the AG should be "independent" and add something. and... 2. ice routes in europe are overgraded compared to alpine rock and to "mountaineering" routes, except perhaps at the VERY top of the scale. technique and equipment have come a vast distance over the past 20 years, and ice routes have NOT been downgraded. kevin, dave jones, and i have "gone modern" on ice gradings - hopefully, to an adequate degree. so, here's my personal "take" on Alpine Grades: F = “facile”, easy An easy climbing objective presents very little technical difficulty on rock (3rd to 4th class) or snow (slopes to ~40°, easy glaciers and ridges). Route-finding is easy, descent is straightforward, and hazards are minimal. The overall psychological challenge is low, although the route may involve an altitude gain of 1000m or more. PD = “peu difficile”, not very difficult (literally: “a little difficult”) Rock climbing on a not very difficult route will be in the range of 4th class through easy 5th class (to about 5.3). Snow slopes can be at about 45°, and exposed ridges can be involved, but there will be little or no ice. Approach, route-finding, and descent are not challenging. Hazards are usually limited. The degree of challenge is moderate. AD = “assez difficile”, quite difficult (literally: “difficult enough”) Rock climbing on a quite difficult climb lies in the low-5th class range (5.0-5.4); or the route may be short (a few pitches) and up to 5.5, 5.6, or 5.7. Steep snow and ice (45° to 50°) may be present. Broken glaciers, knife-edge ridges, and easy mixed climbing may be involved. Route finding, escape, and descent can be problematic, especially in bad weather, although - significantly - an AD route is often the descent of choice. Rockfall, seracs, avalanches, cornices, and/or crevasses may present hazards. AD routes are a significant challenge. D = “difficile”, difficult A difficult climb is usually over 400m in height with rock to middle 5th class (5.4 to 5.7). Alternatively, the route may be short and technically hard for the grade (5.9 to 5.11-). Very steep snow and ice (to about 55°) with short steeper bulges, corniced ridges, complicated icefalls, and/or moderate mixed climbing may be involved. The climbing is usually sustained, and the terrain may not be solid. Route finding can be challenging, escape may not be possible, and the descent (unlike that of easier grades) is generally not made by descending the same route (except by rappel). Hazards may be high. The climb may be remote. Climbs of this level of difficulty present high degrees of psychological challange. TD = “tres difficile”, very difficult Very difficult routes are generally over 500m in height and technically hard; lengths are more typically over 1000m. Rock difficulty ranges up to 5.8 to 5.9. Alternatively, the difficulties may be as high as 5.11+ for short routes or very limited sections of longer routes. There may be a bit of easy aid ( A1 or A2). The route may involve bad, steep, exposed snow and/or very steep alpine ice (to about 65°) with short sections of WI3 or WI4 (75° to 90°). There may be nasty icefalls, double-corniced ridges, and difficult mixed climbing. The climbing is usually sustained. The terrain may be loose, but is often very solid, particularly on technically difficult rock routes. Route finding can be very difficult, and escape (as opposed to retreat) is usually not possible. The descent may not be difficult, but it is invariably “over the top” or by rappel back down the route. Hazards may be high. The climb is often very remote. The degree of psychological engagement is very high. ED = “extreme difficile”, extremely difficult Extremely difficult climbs are often very long (1000m to 2000m) and very technically difficult, but can be shorter and extremely difficult and/or dangerous and/or committing. There is usually a combination of high degrees of several engagement factors involved in an ED rating. Rock climbing will be sustained at a minimum of 5.7 to 5.8, and will often be much more difficult. There may be difficult aid. Snow and ice will be very steep (over 60°), and may be thin and/or include waterfall pitches of WI3 or WI4 (75° to 90°). Icefalls, seracs, and ridges can be vicious. There may be extremely difficult alpine mixed climbing. The terrain may be loose, but is often very solid and very hard. Route finding can be very difficult, and escape is almost never possible. The descent is often long, complicated, and technical. Hazards may be extreme. The climb is often very remote. Total committment is required. i'd appreciate feedback on whether these definitions make sense. thanks for taking the time to read... cheers, don

john was totally unique, with unparalled optimism, energy, drive, focus, imagination, happiness, and patience. there was not a negative atom in his body. i hear from his friend lisa baile that he even managed to bring an atmosphere of good vibes to the palliative care ward. he amassed an unmatched (and probably unmatchable) record: several hundred first ascents, not of routes, but of PEAKS. and he displayed an attitude towards the mountains that we who call ourselves mountaineers can only be humbled by and aspire to: he absolutely accepted the mountains on their own terms. there was no rush, no frustration, no conflicting priorities, no complaint, no avoidance. john simply LIVED in the mountains, and enjoyed that life, no matter what the weather, the discomfort, or the situation. my favorite personal JC-connected incident: in 1988, during john's "technical" period, he and i tried to climb the south buttress on klite peak, beyond toba inlet. we had 57 days available in which we could make the attempt; 57 days for 800 feet of climbing. eventually a weather window arrived, we flew to the inlet, airdropped food and stuff on a glacier, crashed from the salt-chuck up thru 6000 feet of exemplary, mosquito-infested, bluff-laced coast range bush, and walked 3 days of ridges back to the peak - and it started to rain. it rained solidly for 3 days, while we lived on thermarest islands in our leaky tent. finally we high-tailed it for the beach. and john thought this was GREAT! 57 days to climb an 800 foot route, and we FAILED! to john, this epitomized challenge, and why you went into the mountains. he was GLOWING afterwards! my favorite JC memory: a slide show after a trip of his into bella coola country. one slide showed a campfire in the forest after descent from 3 weeks in the alpine; there was a blackened mass in the centre and bits of clothing protruding from the core of the fire... john's commentary: "laundry day on the kimsquit." we were uplifted by his presence, and we're all diminished by his absence. RIP, john clarke.

don't know, but the whistler snow conditions report says 1400m freezing level saturday (about the level of the pass), with 2500m lowering to 1500m sunday. see:http://www.whistler-blackcomb.com/weather/forecast/alpine/index.asp. oh, does it go without saying? watch for slides... cheers, don

janez ales and a friend were up on the duffey lake road yesterday and did not bring good news back. "it was summer up there" was his comment. they started up carlsberg, but it was melting and VERY soft, so they bailed after half a pitch. synchronicity was fully in the sun and looking white and "punky", and parts of the synchrotron had fallen down. no reports from marble canyon, which was very nice last weekend, but the forecast has lillooet at -2C and +4C with possible showers on saturday, and +2C and +9C (!!!) with rain on sunday. you've been warned.... cheers, don

yup, done that. agreed; not too bad travel: kinda bushy, but typical chehalis. the only negative compared to the other suggested lines is that this brings you out into the meadows east of Pk 6500; if that's where u want to go, fine (for complete E ridge, say, or if u plan to camp high). if you're headed for the S face of viennese, the lefthand options probably are a bit quicker. cheers, don

i've had a pair of MEC feratta pants for about 7 years (finally just dead now...) which i've cramponned and otherwise "holed" numerous times. while the tears don't spread badly, repair seems best effected by zig-zag stitching (a la dave parker) followed by seam-gripping to protect the stitching from abrasion. to keep the the seam-gripped area from becoming a "blob", squish it and leave it to set between 2 pieces of waxed paper (which won't stick) and books or some other weight. ***do NOT use iron-on patches on schoeller; heat will degrade the lycra,a dn your expensive pants will be bags. ***do NOT use sewn-on patches unless you have to repair a really large tear; unless you can access some schoeller to patch with, the patch will have no stretch, and the comfort/function of the pants will be impaired. ***duct tape on the back side works fine for temproary repairs, but because the fabric is stretchy and duct tape is not, it eventually works loose - then the loose sticky edges cling to your leg hairs (provided you are so equipped...). some may enjoy this; i do not. cheers,

captain, u owe highlander the dozen. fishstick, CE, HC, and i did the FA of plummer E ridge in may'98. report/photos: CAJ'99 p105, p108. thought for the day: some day somebody will climb the N face of pagoda...

i walked to base of bottom tier only; 2nd tier looked from the road to be a solid but narrow column. upper tier had lots of ice. the farmed ice has completely changed the bottom tier: there is a huge vertical drool over the prow to the left of deeping wall, and a broad sheet between deeping wall and no deductible. both "new" ice formations appear to be being fed somewhat too much water for the temperature, and so are a) pissing wet! and b) fantastically chandeliered. the ice-fishermen on the lake say there has been a fair amount of activity (probably by kamloops locals?), and there is a LOT of debris on the ground, especially under the central wall. given the wetness and aerated ice, both new formations look like full-on challenging leads, but the bottom tier has become a bit of a TR area in recent years anyway. my plea to TR'ers: 1. stick to the thicker routes so u don't trash the formations. 2. set up, climb, and get outa the way efficiently; there is not much ice, and often a lot of climbers wanting at it. 3. share TR's with other groups. this is way faster than moving sets from place to place, and allows everyone to get more vertical in over a day. 4. give right-of-way to leading climbers. 5. try to climb with a bit of delicacy. overly-TR'ed formations turn into pegboards anyway, so HOOK, don't BASH. the objective is to get the climber to the top, not the ice-wall to the bottom. 6. TR on the bottom tier only; ice from the upper tiers can funnel all the way down over the 1st pitch of icy BC, and somebody is gonna get clocked badly sooner or later as a result. back to the conditions report (from L to R): *** the 20m dihedral at the left end is well-iced. *** the nose has only patches of ice *** waite for spring is well iced *** (then comes the lefthand farmed ice; impressive!) *** deeping wall is extremely lean. i would judge it to be climbable but not protectable to the ledge at half height, OK above. TR'ers please stay off it till it ices in better, or the bottom's gonna collapse. *** DW direct very thin all the way *** (the main farmed sheet is now the dominant feature of the lower tier) *** no deductible carries only patchy ice *** icy BC is very lean. it appears too much water is being diverted to the farmed sheets, and the natural line has suffered badly as a result. the dihedral on the left side of the 1st pitch is not even continuously iced. weather was quite warm, maybe -3C, and chinooking. it was raining from boston bar on south. lillooet forecast for the next 4 days is highs +7C to +4C, lows +1C. overall, there is ice, but it isn't stellar yet - needs to get colder! plus the farming needs a bit of adjustment... cheers,

not previously reported, guy edwards and a friend climbed the gully between sumallo and rideout in winter '93 or '94, angling right in its upper half to the summit of sumallo. not too hard, apparently. this gully is clearly visible on pg 246 of red fred II dropping left from the notch at the summit of sumallo (the peak between rideout and payne). the route lies in the right branch below the snowband. enjoy, cheers,

max de jong did the FA of zero gully march 1, 1986; 26hrs return from vancouver, downclimbing gully on descent. he recalls scrambling up left from the top of the gully, but he was tired and time/darkness was pressing; he has no memory of gaining a summit. his guess: he did NOT climb sumallo (altho maybe he got to the foresummit). so far, FRA 1988 to roper and allabach. p.s. somebody needs to check out max's N face of N peak on payne. red fred has it as "obvious", which it ain't, from the valley. quite the opposite, it's hidden from below, and is only obvious once u get to it. keep going up and right till the gully appears on the left. awesome looking face, btw, which max tried once - scared him badly, and he came down. no surpirse; bad rock in this valley... cheers,

tks guys, esp. stephan. i tracked him down and had a chat. he and mark climbed outa the sumallo valley to the ridge between silvertip and rideout, went east to climb W ridge silvertip, came back and climbed E ridge of rideout, dropped down its W face and climbed sumallo, then traversed the S side of rideout back to their ascent route east of rideout and dropped back to their camp. STOUT day. next question: i wonder if max climbed sumallo when he did the FA of zero gully? another call required... more later...

tks. i'll track him down and find out what route they took to climb the peak. the route descriptions for silvertip, rideout, payne, and cocmpanions have gotten terribly confused over the years, as u realize if u follow culbert'64, culbert'74, fairley'86, beckey'81, beckey'95, and the original references. this is not a very popular summer mountaineering area, but it's one of the best for winter/spring, so i intend to straighten out the "who did what, when, and from where" thing. i'll post the results when they're available. cheers,

followed your footsteps saturday, michael (w graham rowbotham) - actually didn't see any trace of your passage 'cept on the road, but metaphysically speaking... thanks for posting the TR, and stimulating the interest! great day, superb views, awesome cirque, entertaining climbing. drove just over 10km from the bridge at back of sunshine valley to about 1km beyond where the road crosses the upper creek (dry ford, this time of year). only about 1km walking to end of road, then frozen meadows to base of snow. 'twas kinda warm, so the couloir was a bit spooky - lots of running water - but we reckoned most of whatever was going to fall already had done so cuz of the inversion for several days, and we had only one rock and only one little fusilade of ice all day. 3hrs car to notch: mainly 45d snow (mostly soft; easy kicking) with short steeper sections (to 60d) plus 2 very short rock steps and 3 short WI sections. feels very exposed; neat terrain. continued to 7700' summit to east - thought it might be unclimbed, but there was a little cairn with a film tin inside: mark allaback and john roper, aug 16, 1988 - anybody know them? they called this "sumallo peak". re: dru's comment about this summit maybe being climbed by 1st party to do W side of rideout, i'm unaware of such an ascent. beckey has a route called SW, but that's via the SW side of silvertip, NOT SW side of rideout, if u check early guides/references. downclimbed gully, incl ice steps, 2 hrs notch to car. michael, was that your unthreaded black pound-in rappel anchor? do u want it back? or shall i give it to a museum? hint: learn to do abalakovs! that thing is scary! cheers, don

good thread, especially at this time of year. dreary rain, gotta dream! 1st thought: a mentor in my early days, john howard, was a VERY keen winter climber, and used to say that if you tried REALLY hard, you could get in two winter routes 'round here in a winter. and he was right: the weather, the conditions, and your time all have to co-incide. very tough... 2nd thought: despite the "calendar winter" thing of dec 21-mar 22, alpine winter climbing season starts when the peaks snow up solidly (early november) and lasts till spring arrives (about end march on low peaks, end april higher up). 3rd thought: my top dozen: hidden couloir, dragontail, apr'76, w john knight. very exciting and very exacting on the central face. S ridge of welch, feb'78, solo. perfect snow, cramponning way below treeline, 6000ft from the valley in 6 hrs, racing a storm to get off, sketchy weaving down the SW face. N face of the west lion, jan'79, w kevin mclane. superb bivy on lower snow-ledge, then abt 6p of intricate snowed-up rockclimbing. N face slesse, jan'80, w perry beckham and john wittmayer. 21 rope-lengths, maybe 9 or 10 belays, bits of 70 degrees, scratchy sections, a 25-foot tunnel thru the cornice to finish. why aren't people climbing this route and arctic wing (1989; de jong, gibbs, macgregor) to the right every winter? S ridge atwell, jan'81, w beckham, ted davis, and rob mitchell. 1600 ft of superb neve, 80m of rimed up fright on the summit with only terrain runners/belays. N couloir rideout, jan'83, w joe bajan and joe buszowski. what a powerful line! 2700ft in the gully, 45d-50d with 2p mixed/rock/ice low down. judge's route, arrowsmith, feb'86, w peter croft and greg foweraker. 3000 ft of superb crisp cramponning from way below treeline, weaving amongst buttresses, the lower world immersed in a cloud-sea, waddington distant to the north. NW face on knight, apr'87, w bruce kay. the best of them all. 6p or 7p of 60d-80d runnels, then a scratchy exit right, then a scary warm snowfield to the cornice. tantalus traverse, feb'89, w beckham and foweraker. effing cold; tantalus, serratus, alpha, and out in 4 perfect days. better than foley, welch, stewart, knight in 3 days w dave jones in nov'79. the thousand metre gully on the N face of cdn border peak, mar'90, w tom gilchrist, craig hollinger, and bill noble. superb cramponning from the valley, a cpl short hard snowy rock pitches up top. E face payne, mar'92, w helen habgood, bob koen, and rob nugent. 1400ft of 45d-55d, with 3 short WI3 steps; safer than the beckey/landreville to the left. SW ridge skihist, feb'93, w darren melnychuk. 2 days approach dragging sleds up logging roads, another day to antimony lake, a final day to the highest summit in SW BC. final thought: some of the failures left better memories than the successes. coda: winter climbing is a young man's game - too fucking cold, too fucking hard, too fucking physical - not much in the book over the last 10 years - maybe this january...

more re: tchaikazan. if u want to get real good idea of what the place is like, western canada wilderness committee sells a superb 36"x16" panoramic poster of the valley for the ridiculously low price of CDN$5. how do they expect to fight the timber companies when they won't even charge us outdoors-folk a reasonable price for great stuff!?!? see: the store at http://www.wildernesscommittee.org/ or phone 1-800-661-9453. cheers, don

stefan, tchaikazan valley. superb camping in open meadow (stay above the moraine to get most breeze to shoo the bugs off). tons to do, mostly moderate (but poor) rock on south sides, entertaining steep snow/ice on north sides. 5 glacial valleys radiate from head of main valley. half a dozen 10,000-footers, innumerable 9,000-ers. all day trips (some would be very long) or easy overnighters. VERY expensive helicopter trip, or drive in from williams lake, then walk about 25km - horse trail, virtually no elevation gain. short bush section and one tough creek crossing at end. see bivouac.com for info; also cdn alpine journal 2001. cheers, don

climbing photos of route, see: http://www.bivouac.com/PhotoPg.asp?PhotoId=2964 and http://www.bivouac.com/PhotoPg.asp?PhotoId=2965 enjoy, cheers, don

[ 11-09-2002, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Don Serl ]

michael, heart of darkness is the couloir right of the NE buttress, between it and the lowe rib. it had 2 or 3 solid attempts by peder ourom, perry beckham, and that crew of guys back in the early '80s. the lower third contains, if memory serves, a cpl WI3 section. this is separated from the similarly climbable upper two-thirds by an overhanging rock step. some aid was done, and the word was that bolts and/or bathooks wld be necessary. and that takes time - probably a day for a pitch of funky aid in winter. sooooo: a bivy is gonna be necessary... and THAT leads to the real problem: the couloir catches all of the effusion from the whole N face of the peak, and so is completely awash in spindrift in all except perfectly settled, calm weather, even when nearby routes like the N face or arctic wing (R if fraser ribber) are climbable. photos on pgs 263 and 265 of alpine select will give u some idea (as does the cover), altho the lighting and perspectives are poor. go have a look; it strikes me as a route on which the chances of success are mighty slim, but the consequences of failure are unlikely to be completely dire - so long as you can keep downclimbing and rappelling together in rivers of spindrift. cheers, don

old beta: steve sutton and i tried VT in jan 1977. we climbed the LH ridge in the photo to the little double-topped summit, when we decided the day wasn't going too well. no technical difficultites to that point, just late, slow, and not energized. steve had a twisted back or something, but in truth, i think we were scared too. we downclimbed and rapped the partially sunlit gully falling left from the col left of those subsummits - very dangerous - nearly taken out by rockfall on the final rap. never been back... the story was (and, i suppose, is) that a cpl parties (one incl paul starr) had reached the ridge at the point at which VT rises. VT is separated from the main ridge by a gap maybe 1/2 ropelength deep. there are no anchor points, so one theory was to bring a huge iron bar and pound it into the "rock", then build a cairn around it - leave the rope fixed to re-ascend when u come back. i suppose you cld also use a "deadman" plate sort of anchor. ross wyborn has a spring-time photo of the thumb, and the whole ridge has enuf breadth to carry snow. don't count on any anchors except for "terrain". there is another perspective in fairley p 84. seems like it would be OK to reach the gap from the NW side, from beneath pyroclastic. jim sinclair (that's almost certainly who u were talking to) used to theorize that it wld be possible to climb the thumb in the rare conditions that arise from time to time in winter when everything gets plastered, then freezes solid. maybe. i'd reckon u cld climb the shadowed RH face in the photo in those conditions, but i doubt you'd get off that face onto the actual thumb. certainly an intriguing challenge. good luck. cheers, don

yup, sept 22. more photos: http://www.saarch.com/forrest/winstone/index.html enjoy, cheers, don