Cpt.Caveman

After reading all your comments I cannot say that there are bad points you are making. But I can say that I don't agree with all of them. I can't see directly how rack exchange or handling gear in discussed manner above would contribute to an accident. It just doesn't add up. I could agree if someone argued - Because we racked like idiots and dropped our #5 camalot for the crux pitch then tried to climb it and got hurt or something along those lines. Basically it appears to me you are trying to disect an accident that hasn't happened yet. I think it's fair to evaluate other's business in the hills but it's hard to get a real good grasp on someone else's skills, brains, fitness and abilities if you don't know them. Thus I don't think the hard line - it's bad to rack this way or system is vital idea - is valid. I guess I am a "lucky bastard" and hope to keep it that way. I definitely have an ability to gauge a person's ability to climb a given route with me by a certain plan. In other words I firmly believe logistics are sometimes more important than the movement. I can make up skill with fitness or fortitude to a certain extent.

Maybe - did you walk out shield mesa lake way?

Not quite I dont use camalots tiny fingernail stopper maybe size 4-5 (not sure) black metolius cam green metolius cam baby blue metolius cam

Climb: Prusik Peak -West Ridge Date of Climb: 9/12/2004 Trip Report: My old army and climbing buddy R.T. came into town recently. We hadn't seen each other in 7-8 years and he had not climbed but once in that time. But he appeared fit. Sunday we parked away from Snow Creek TH and started hiking around 7 am. Good temps allowed us to hike without sweating much. We passed a dirty hippy with dog on the way in just before Nada Lake. Nice dog. Eventually we made our way to Trauma Rib. Took a break at the Gnome Tarn and I was taking a bunch of photos with my big camera and ate lunch. Rallied below the ridge and climbed up taking photos and being happy the weather cooperated. Did usual summit handstand and farted around. Hiked out and back to car 7:15 Gear Notes: 9 mil rope 50 m 3 cams 1 stopper 2 tri cams (pink and red) Camera for goats Approach Notes: usual trail expectations no snow.

Cpt. Actually, I wasn't talking about your specific comments at all. With regards to the "life or death" comment, I meant the ability to act alone or in concert with a minimum or conversation and confusion (like wondering where any given piece of pro is when you need it, being able to communicate through the rope when out of sight/hearing, periodically tying into the rope when cleaning aid, and knowing you're both tying knots in the end of the rope when doing long raps in the dark, etc... [or in the case of AlpineK's work, that someone in the crew is actually sharpening the chains he's climbing with - if he's that kind of arborist.]). Hey there’s nothing wrong with all that. I just don’t agree that it is critical to climbing with another being. As others have noted – I have climbed a ton of routes with people I have never met before and varying degrees of experience. It just never made much of a difference as long as the person was competent. You, Chuck, and AlpineK make it sound like all the various alpine and rock accidents and deaths that occur each year must all be due to some grand and external causes rather than small mistakes made in a moment of confusion over communication or mishandling gear for whatever reason. I never said that either. Accidents are what they are – accidents – they are unexpected. I really can’t respond much better than that ramble there since it’s vague. But I can say that each accident should be analyzed and each and every person can take their own judgement what can be learned from them. The point was: get an act/system together - any system - and stick with it so it becomes second nature. Do it individually and do it collectively and you will move far faster and safer. I don't know anyone that climbs fast, hard, and safe that doesn't have a stable and consistent act together with most aspects of their climbing and particularly their gear handling. OK if you say so. I climb efficient enough for me and have managed to have a good time. I didn’t know we were taking an exam here. For awhile here I've actually been convinced guys might have lots of experience on some reasonable routes and maybe even had a few near-death learning experiences of the self-imposed kind one occasionally runs into over years of playing around on the edge - but then again, maybe I was mistaken. After reading these responses one could easily get the idea that maybe you guys actually tend to gumby around a lot and play it so easy and safe that you're never really in the kind of situations, or under the kind of stress, where any of this shit starts making a difference - or maybe all three of you are just naturally lucky guys... If I was almost killed 10 times and had 15 stitches in my head might you consider me a better or safer partner? This part doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. As for the most part I climb gumby routes and am fine with that. I didn’t know I was here to impress and lay out some sort of as some climbers call it “resume” (retarded term if you ask me).

Tamrack (not sure if I spelled it right) LONGSHOT I KNOW. But could save me 15 bucks or whatever it costed.

Yeah no shit life or death. Give it a rest. laughing my ass off. This isn't fucking rocket science. If you imply that cuz some party can't exchange gear in an efficient manner might some day die because of this and direct relations to it's side effects or habits partnerwise fucking laughing harder!! I could see it was "notion that it doesn't matter how you rack gear" seemed to apply to my remarks. Anyone with vast experiences has probably figured out what works best for them and formed their own opinions. Thus they wouldn't be asking people here in this form now would they

I got some litter on the curb outside. GO EVERYONE PICK IT UP NOW.

Actually I am getting the laugh from my side

I have walked part of the pct in wa for 5 days and did not see a soul.

Exactly. I am soo friggin cool I went off a trail. Anyone can contrive a route to the top of some hill without a trail. Many peaks are often approachable by known means of information (via a trail and GUESS WHAT A LOGGING ROAD) often via the internet or some publication of information that is spewed out 100 times. CBS - if an idiot flagged a route an idiot's way that could have been avoiding a pristine meadow then maybe it should be argued elsewhere. That wasn't my point so take that garbage example\argument somewhere else as a response to mine. It doesn't apply to obvious dumb ass sitautions like that. Klenke and marylou sound like they are beating their own drums more than anyone so far. But I'll give some other people a shot to toot their own horns too. C'mon give all the examples of where and when. Now that's a way to make a case instead of: I did this and this many peaks or walked off trail once because of this and am cool and flagging so bad because it leaves paper trails. Shit there's logging roads that leave a bigger mark than wads of paper on some bush or tree anyway.

So what..

Get real. Out of all the times you go out in the woods to climb these days how many are complete 100% off trail schwacks in the summer? And give all the examples of those too. I'll be back to argue later..

I'm definitely not against trails and totally agree about lame "hyped up" mystique that people apply to areas around here.

I think flagging is acceptable in some situations like: When if you don't flag a "standard route" then every yahoo on the planet will forge their own 50 maze of trails going to the same place. That's a LOT more of a mess than some plastic flagging that fades after a few years of harsh weather and drops to the ground.

Running- Running how? where? On a flat trail, up a hill on a road? Running on a flat road I don’t think relates as much help muscle wise for alpine climbing as cycling up hills but aerobically; yes it does help. I think running on a trail is good. But usually it doesn’t do much to exercise some muscles like the back and shoulders where you would get use carrying a heavy pack. Here you gain the agility often encountered and usable on talus and scree somewhat… However ankles get twisted, nasty spills can happen, and you get the idea. On the other hand I prefer to ride a bicycle on the road or dirt trail with uphills thrown in for good measure. If it’s not that long of a hill you can always time yourself and strive to make the trips faster than the last one. Or you can do it more than once – whatever… Cycling is easier on my knees and really targets some of the same muscles it seems as hiking. One could avoid the “dangers of cycling” by going on maintained paths if they are available. That’s another subject altogether if you ask me.. In a nutshell I think one could replace running with cycling and still maintain great fitness for alpine climbing. I quit running 3 years ago and cycle currently 3-6 times a week for 1 -3 hours each session. I feel fine doing similar activities or maybe slightly better in some ways. I have lost some agility on the rock talus but I can live with that.

Noone has come out of the woodwork saying it is acceptable to leave your draws up there. I am certainly not going to either. I will add some facts(?) specific to this discussion though. The silence might also be acceptance. First, from viewing the routes from below, they don't appear to be so continuously overhanging as to make cleaning the draws on rappel very difficult. At the worst I think it may be inconvenient to get to the top anchors (climb another line? downclimb and/or rap through some icky trees?) Alex could probably fill us in on this. Who cares about that part. The point doesn't have anything to do with it. Second, I don't believe this alleged eyesore has been there since last winter as I walked/skied by there a couple times this spring and didn't see any fixed draws or ropes (though I was able to find the bolts and chains). Does this time deal really matter? Do we really need that stuff up there when people leave? It's not doing anybody a service to resort to leaving gear behind like this in an area like this except for the climber that left them behind.

That depends on what you are calling litter. And RUMR what you are equating as an "acceptable" retort is just he did it first mommy. Now it's ok.

The biggest dud of a climb I have ever done in the stuart range was W Ridge Sherpa peak. Granted it would be great rock in some ranges but plenty of better routes in the area worth doing instead... Don't waste your time unless you want to climb the balanced rock.

I dont really care for this thread but I have to say it: All the mods and "pro ice sporto litter" and or anti merv people seem to be the ones calling names and talking trash. Funny how that works.

Hello Dave. I might be interested. Will send message.

About those gear slings- For free climbing I dont use em. And since I dont aid climb (at least intend to haha!) I dont use one :-) But the thing I do like to use is just a couple of slings. They are light versatile and do the job. If not much gear I just use one 1/2 inch webbing or regular webbing. If more gear I use 2 webbings of 1/2 or whatever I may have available.. Those gear slings are just another thing the climbing companies have hyped up everyone and convinced some of them that it is necessary or good to have. Less is more in my case.

The best rack ? (^)(^) (*)(*) (.)(.) (')(') (o)(o) (0)(0)

Range of Glaciers is not a climbing book. But if you read most well written history books they are dryer than normal. I didn't think it was too bad of a compilation and have read it twice. I like sections of cowboys and indians and the pass finding, mining and all the avalanche stuff... In fact I thought it pretty good.

I AM KING OF ROCK POLICE > NO BOLTS AND NO DRAWS IN PLACE.