Cpt.Caveman

hahahaha only a semi-touche there...I never claimed to have sunk my heart and soul into training for climbing; altough i can say that my career, relationship and family have suffered because of climbing...And, since i haven't stated my position on turning someone in, i'd like to see how i'm hypocritical... I wasnt talking about that part. I was talking about facts. also, by "shit talking to them on that front" i meant you can't go calling them (Cosgrove and Smith)c hickens and bolt clipping pussies alone, even though they power drilled a few anchors in a protected area... Nobody is using chicken or chicken bolt here. We're debating morals it seems to me. I don't see anyone implying sport climbers are pussies in an argument but yourself. Again sticking to facts would be smart for you until you make more points. I give a c- with effort on that post. Good progress.

You disagree completely- Fine Everyone is a hypocrite. But those that have learned and tried to rectify it are probably better respected in some circles… What you seem to imply is that if someone has a reputation of a good trad climber they might also have a license to bolt in the wilderness. Hmm highly debatable. Can’t talk shit to them on what front? You mean the one where they bolted in the wilderness? Am I suppose to respect them for that? Again you don’t make a good argument with solid points. Once again - What you seem to imply is that if someone has a reputation of a good trad climber they might also have a license to bolt in the wilderness I wont even respond to your last statement because it makes YOU the hypocrite. And since you are apparently critiquing hypocrites I don’t want to make you look bad

True- but that also is taken out of contect Dru. - did he use motorized drills from top down or in the wilderness areas at all? Probably not. - Off subject - Does he still climb? I heard he got fucked up in the desert in the late 90s. And nobody cares - not true necessarily.

Whether or not Lambone has done the example above is not completely relevant. I believe he was trying to convey a point of view or possible opinion. To discount his comment because you don't believe it has merit based upon your remark brings nothing to the table.

I would not call that regulating. More like tipped off and convenient... I suppose my choice of words is poor but the point is there still..

If our goal is to convince rangers that we as climbers are law-abiding citizens, I believe we'd make more progress in working to promote and enforce compliance with the issues that they are most concerned with. I call that a real good thread drift. We are talking about something that the rangers have not yet tried to enforce yet. I call bullshit. I'm not trying to "convince" anyone I am law abiding. I never have and never will. You are confusing bolting regulations with some other motive it appears. They are not concerned with at the moment bolting because they have not figured out how to regulate it effectively... Or wether or not it is worth trying to regulate. ANOTHER neat trick by mattp on how to sneak in something to justify his own actions. I don't buy it.

Haha - yeah *everyone* is so pristine - boy nice try. But hey think about what I just said. It does make sense. My main points being the examples were poor *AND* it was thread drift anyways.

Hmm drilling into pristine wilderness and walking into it without a permit are 2 different threads and highly debatable depending on who is going and what they are doing including impact.... Some people feel compelled to sleep and shit trampling on perfect meadows with their permits in mass. Others without them on rocks for instance. Lots of room for debate. And thus I think it should be struck out and removed from the thread Can you say thread drift? Nice try. "and some of these same individuals would be highly critical of anybody who sought to turn them in so that climbers as a group didn't look bad in the eyes of the authorities" Uh where is that thread or who said that?

That's fuckin classic

Comments like you are gay or fucking what - well call it what you like. I have done so before but: The truth is some here will do anything within their means to quiet people who speak out against wildnerness drilling. Anything from removing posts, declaring them spray, falsely accuse the people of threatening, falsely accuse them of making insults and even suggest acquaintances are making comments that one is irrational or any of that above for instance. I have been called on the carpet in or for all of the above situations today although they are all false accusations. This isn't enough to keep me quiet. Some suggest putting responses in spray so nobody reads them I suppose. But these are real issues being swept under the carpet by folks. I still remain rational for now (but others might prefer to ban me so I can use 10 avatars). Will that really make a difference? Maybe not... Sounds like a "community forum" where you can debate without being objectionable This is access and reputation is important about this sort of item in certain parts of the woods. Would I rat on a wilderness power driller - Probably if I didn't like em. More than likely I would chop the bolts though...

All rigid friends should be sent to me for proper retirement and disposal. Haha

I agree with Merv. Some people like Lummox, think rating somebody out is a "fag" thing to do regardless of the reason or circumstance. I disagree...there are climbers out there doing bad things...I don't feel obliged to support them just because they climb. well put

Uh - what objectionable post did I make? Oh you mean the ones where I was truthful and concise? Where I supplied facts without personal attacks and without name calling or even naming names? Like I said get over yourself first and read the damn thread there. You are making all this thread drift with your own self induced soap opera. Whether or not you can refrain from further attacks on me will be seen. I have been within the limits of this boards rules yet am threatened by power hungry climbers like you and others that fabricate things that certainly do not exist... ------------------------------------------------------ At any rate - I don't believe in the idea of a convicted wilderness bolter "educating" other bolters or users. Nor do I agree with them representing me.

My point Caveman is that if there is a discussion about the issues then the thread is not in jeapordy of going to spray. If you and other posters devolve the conversation into threats of violence and personal attacks then it certainly will and your privalege to be a part of this community will be in jeapordy. My privilege? Privelege to what? Listen to your drivel about what you see correct? Or privilege to adhere to your bolt clippin policies here? In jeapardy of what? In jeopardy of making another avatar? At least I am using the same one over and over again here. To a large degree the fate of this and any other thread is dependent on the behavior of the people who post in it. The discussion does not have to be politically correct to be civil. I firmly believe the fate of this thread is doomed because you already expressed intention on moving it. You have made few points about the actual issue in your posts to this thread. Instead you have suggested that moderation is unfair and is the problem which is simply not true. I have made several very important issues clear. That some moderators of this board are wilderness bolters , that some “contributors to this board” are wilderness bolters. And having said that I think the board is biased to this sort of debate. Keeping that in mind let the mud slinging continue. If you honestly feel that in order to have your points taken seriously you have to be offensive and threatening, you need to find somewhere else to spray your ideas because that is not what the climbers board exists for. What does the board exist for? Don’t say anything and be hush hush about people here power drilling in the wilderness. You should try getting over your “moderator powers” and then read the thread better. At what time did I say the word threat or imply I was going to do so or accept it? At what time was I offensive? Probably more like a realist and right concise to my points.

CBS shot thier wad to soon. CBS or you? Or both?

Nobody is getting their skull cracked They might get their route chopped though... You don't but some people just dont understand anything but offensive garbage. They don't listen until you resort to those tactics. They are right here moderating.

To each his own style. I can't say I agree with him but he has his methods right?

No need to bet. It is up to the people who post in the thread. If it degenerates to spray then it will be moved or deleted entirely...depending on how offensive it becomes. If you all keep the discussion reasonable then it will remain right where it is. I personally find part of the punishment to be very effective. The guy has to research the law and educate the public. The problem is that good debate is often offensive and thought provoking in that nature. Are you just too thick headed to realize it.

I like how Beyer admitted he has chopped over 400 bolts in the latest Alpinist.

I call bullshit chelle. Good debate and arguments are often offensive. They are passionate. They allow people to express their feelings truthfully. They are no holds barred. If you make it a romper room environment it's just too pc correct for an item like this. It's basically declaring it dead before it can start. I just guess some of you moderators will never get it.

Hi Billcoe, Probably not too many. The sad thing is people on here are doing the same thing. When I say here I mean on this board and in WA state. Unfortunately it's not always in the best interest of climbers. But the "behind the walls" clan of folks doing it and their followers are "representing the climbing community and it's best interests" right!? - well some might argue they are doing everyone a service and others might argue exactly the opposite. I'd rather go hiking than put in bolts everywhere.

It's only a matter of time before it happens here.......

That's called Horsetooth. Also I heard rumors that place got bulldozed a few years back. Anyone got the scoop? It was a nice bouldering area when I was living in the area for a short time.

I can't stand GW but since he was so hot to call this 60 minutes out on the web here I thought I would reply with some after the fact results... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6055248/?gt1=5100

Everyone should bring a lighter for first bivouacs at or below treeline so they can warm up. Think of it as a lightweight sleeping bag ;-)