Peter_Puget

From the structure of your questions assumed that you had info on this place and were not too keen on the idea of a guide being published. Your pointed questioning of Kevbone seemed a condescending imitation of Socrates. Questioning designed to lead him to the conclusion he was not the right man to write the guide. Why not just come out and say what you think or suggest ways for Kevbone to create his guide. Anyway that was the way I understood your post. I assume Pink thought likewise.

I call BS on your "educated conversation" it was quite reasonable to view your post as putting Kevbone down. Anyway that's how I took your post.

Come downtown sometime and I'll buy you lunch!

I am reminded about your comments relative to Randy Leavitt.

Thursday Night: Partly cloudy. Low 9. Friday: Partly cloudy. High 24. Friday Night: Partly cloudy. Low 18. Saturday: Partly cloudy. Slight chance of snow. Probability of measurable precipitation 20 percent. High 32. Saturday Night: Partly cloudy. Slight chance of snow. Probability of measurable precipitation 20 percent. Low 24.

I am not so sure Milton "invented" the negative income tax. Any way here is an interesting article by a well respected economist that pretty much sums up why Ven ( and Iraq by the way) is screwed. There is a more updated version available here but it costs $5.00.

Enter a route name when posting in the gallery!

Nope this is a "Co-OP". I wonder how many indoor climbing walls there are in the area.

Well Friday afternoon I should be sledding up the backside of Persis for Saturday adventure. Weather permitting of course!!!

There is a "private" climbing gym near the old steel plant (West Seattle) Maybe that's what you heard about.

It's fluoridation.

At first I thought you were serious and then I realized you were a comic genius! link The good Doctor also opposed vaccines.

You should be climbing everyweekend! A manifesto for the weekend!!!!! 1. We want to sing the love of danger, the habit of energy and rashness. 2. The essential elements of our poetry will be courage, audacity and revolt. 3. Cascadeclimbers.com has up to now magnified pensive immobility, ecstasy and slumber. We want to exalt movements of aggression, feverish sleeplessness, the double march, the perilous leap, the slap and the blow with the fist. 4. We declare that the splendor of the world has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. An enchainment is more beautiful than the Victory of Samothrace. 5. We want to sing the man without leashes, the ideal axis of which crosses the earth, itself hurled along its orbit. 6. The climber must spend himself with warmth, glamour and prodigality to increase the enthusiastic fervor of the primordial elements. 7. Beauty exists only in struggle. There is no masterpiece that has not an aggressive character. Climbing must be a violent assault on the forces of nature, to force them to bow before man. 8. We are on the extreme promontory of the centuries! What is the use of looking behind at the moment when we must open the mysterious shutters of the impossible? Time and Space died yesterday. We are already living in the absolute, since we have already created eternal, omnipresent speed. 9. We want to glorify climbing - the only cure for the world. 10. We want to demolish guidebooks, trip reports, guideservices and all opportunist and utilitarian cowardice. 11. We will sing of the great climbers agitated by desire, pleasure and revolt; the multi-colored and polyphonic surf of revolutions in the cascades: the nocturnal vibration of the arsenals and the workshops beneath their violent electric moons: the gluttonous roadways devouring smoking serpents; climbers suspended from the clouds by the thread of their rope; bridges with the leap of climbers flung across the diabolic cutlery of sunny rivers: adventurous climbers sniffing the horizon; climbers charging to the Cascades to the flapping of a flag and the applause of enthusiastic crowds.

Where is the psych? Isn't this a climbig site?

Well my highly detailed drawing wont show properly.

RRRRR RRRRRP RRRRRR P RRRR P C P C P C P C P C P C P Ow – Stop posting and start building. A nice roof (‘R) protecting the cliff face (‘C). Add some nice glass walls and a fire pit. And I’d be knockin’ at your door every week. Add a cute coed pulling espresso and it would be twice a week.

link

It’s not a flaw Minx. It is supporting evidence not substantive proof. If there was a bad outcome and she became pregnant again would she the second time around make the same choice with regard to climbing? What would you think about the decision if she did? What if she changed her mind and decided not to climb the second time around. Would you consider that choice reasonable? What if instead of a climbing accident she tripped on the tread leaving her house and lost her baby. What would you think if she chose never to leave her house during a second pregnancy? An alternate way to look at it is what would you think if she had no regret? What if there was a bad outcome and she said “the chance to climb XXXX for the 30th time was worth it.”

Minx – One way the quality of the personal choice can be assessed is to see how she would react to a bad case outcome. If something happened would she regret her decision? Would she do something different is a very similar decision presented itself again in the future? Two people go to Vegas and one looses $1,000 gambling and the other wins $1,000. Both go away happy. I would say that it is evidence that the looser made a good decision when the choice to go gamble was made. A happy winner is not evidence of a good decision. My guess is that she would not be a happy looser.

Minx - . As I think I understand your argument: We both agree activity is a good thing. We both agree that activity should be limited during pregnancy. We disagree as to just where the limitation should lay. Our analytical process seems the same. Where we differ is simply in how risk adverse we are and on how we value the benefit. I agree it is a personal calculation (choice) based on an individual’s personal values. I would call it a good choice if (in this case) she accurately makes the calculation and a bad choice if she does not. Do you agree?

Minx - I think we aren’t too far apart on this issue. Nothing I have said can be construed as being against being active while pregnant. You say "I just don't agree with that approach." Meaning limiting activity during pregnancy yet your own Dr. was only comfortable if you rode your horse in a "limited fashion." The day our first child was born I received a phone call from my wife saying she felt ‘weird’... my advice was to go take a walk. Exercise is great. We decided that hiking in rough muddy terrain where slips and slides were to be expected should be avoided. The thought of being stuck out several miles from nowhere all alone with my very pregnant wife having a seriously twisted ankle was something we thought not worth the risk given the relatively meager benefit. I am simply saying lead climbing seems to be outside the scope of riding a horse in a "limited fashion." Cheers,

Wow alot of hidden something there Archy. It must be tough to live in a world where when someone makes a different choice in their life than you would have made there is an implicit value judgment being made on you. Crazy.

Archy - I do not think you can find anywhere in this thread where I said anyone should do anything I say or use my experience as a guideline. Minx asked what I thought and I answered. Cheers

Minx – All I can do is relate some of my experiences. My wife and I use to hike a lot. While she was about 5-6 months pregnant with our first child we were hiking during a rain storm and she slipped, hit hard and slid down a hillside about 20 feet. We decided to head back to the car and on our way home we decided we should limit our hiking difficulty to that of circumnavigating Greenlake. In my early late teens I sustained a climbing injury as the result of just making a move on TR ( I had made this move at least 100 times before ~10a/b) and having an important tendon rip. Surgery was required to fix this little or maybe not so little problem. Move forward 20 years and a friend of mine suffered a similar injury albeit on a more difficult route. A friend ripped his bicep off his forearm on an .11a slab last summer. Stuff happens while climbing even w/o falling. When my wife was pregnant with our second child she had a non-pregnancy related serious medical issue. She was forced to make decisions for two. With surgery the last option to be considered she was more concerned with the potential consequences of anesthesia on our son than with her own health. She had to be persuaded to undergo surgery rather than waiting it out. Imagine how she would have felt if she needed surgery for repairing a tendon blown out on an easy route she had climbed before many times. For a couple years after his birth we kept looking for some sign that he was impaired. Rational fears? Who knows but in the overall scheme of things climbing is small potatoes!

I certainly think it's a bad idea and if she asked me I would have no problem telling her that. Deferring climbing seems like a small price to pay to avoid a small yet not insignificant risk to her unborn child. I wonder if she gave up caffeine or alcohol while pregnant. Certainly these represent far less risky behaviors.