Peter_Puget

From wikipedia Matt – The mandarin class is your class of intellectuals and civil servants. This is not a unusual use of the term mandarin. (eg Chomsky’s book title) In your speak it is the EPA making decisions and recommendations to our elected representatives. As a practical matter the mandarins do in fact often issue decrees called “administrative rules.” You did mention the EPA in this very thread! What I wrote: “Externalities are not anything unique to “Free Market” and free markets may tend to minimize their impact. I am no way misrepresenting your position here. What I am doing is stating mine. Externalities are a bi-product of almost all human action and markets can act to minimize any negative impacts. Interference in markets, no matter how well intentioned, may actually increase negative externalities. To consider this misrepresenting your position is just silliness on your part. I am not arguing against anything here but for a different position altogether. Coase’s theorem provides support for this belief and indicates that transaction cost are important. I say government should in general try to minimize these costs and let markets sort out the issues. See above. Again you are simply wrong. In short it suggests that the cure maybe worse than the disease. I think this is stated in my first post where I write : to the extent government (& attorneys too) increase transaction costs they also can have the perverse effect of increasing externalities. I should have been more clear and stated negative externalities. I am not against all goverment activity but do believe that things like government (international) pollution credit markets have the potential to be a major disaster. By the way one “l” in Walmart. One analysis that is completely missing in your posts is why we don’t have your system in place right now. Our current state, per Matt, is short sighted voters deceived by the moneyed class and dishonest politicians making decisions based on their own need for money. The fact that there is no reason to think things will change anytime soon provides more support for my goal of limited government interference.

From Wikpedia again: I have not even mentioned “credits” but have mentioned the need to bring cost down in order to improve market efficiency. I have claimed that the market is the best mechanism for allocating resources given the billions of differing valuations in the world. I have brought up several examples of intellectual failure in the world. Namely: The ossification of chinese beauracracy (Mandarins) Chomsky’s critique of the intellectual class in the Vietnam war. I think I have been on point and consistant. I think "we" cannot make these calculations but the best place for them to be made is in the market. As far as Walmart goes there is no rational debate - Walmart is a good thing and its positive externalies dwarf the negative. Here is a site I use to read while it was active. Lots of good info there. Chatter on...

Matt - You crack me up. I was hardly harping on anything merely replying to your criticisms. If repsonding to your points is harping well then I am guilty. And here i am harping again: You said the above and I replied: Again I ask you to please show me the straw men I have knocking down. Cheers, PP

Matt - You crack me up. I was hardly harping on anything merely replying to your criticisms. If repsonding to your points is harping well then I am guilty. And here i am harping again: You said the above and I replied: Again I ask you to please show me the straw men I have created. Cheers, PP

Now Matt no straw men and a rather direct statement of belief. You were the one who mentioned "Tragedy of the Commons" and my reply was directly related to that subject. For grins I just now ran a Google search on Tragedy of the Commons and in the first link shown guess what? Coase is mentioned. How odd that you tell Jayb in a smart ass manner to look up Tragedy of the Commons and then ridicule me for bringing up Coase. Pretty lame. If you have a second please show me the straw men I erected and beat down. I am sure you are aware I was using the term Mandarin in this sense. It was also a reference to your buddy Chomsky. I still find the reference funny. Since you didn't get it here is a quote from Wikpedia: American Power and the New Mandarins is a book by the US academic Noam Chomsky. He develops the arguments laid out in The Responsibility of Intellectuals that the American intellectual and technical class, in Universities and in government (the New Mandarins) bear major responsibility for the atrocities perpetrated by the United States in Vietnam. Actually Matt what I said was this => "The popular vote can’t even be considered because the masses are confused by election advertising!" I never said that was a quote from you; however, it is an obvious conclusion from your writing. You did write this: maybe if they are elected representatives DO THEIR JOB and take action based upon a perception of the common good rather than upon corporate earnings and election contributions. In Matt's world the voters decieved by lobbyists and political parties vote into office representatives to govern according to certain values. These representatives should then listen to the mandarins and in favor of the common good do as they instruct. After all it's all for the public good, the masses have been deceived! The know not what they do. A scientist may make a direct connection between cars and global warming that everyone accepts as fact. That is the easy part. The hard part is deciding what to do about it. Billions of people with billions of values. Markets are well suted for this kind of work. As a sidebar I would note that I have never been a fan of Rand.

Now Matt no straw men and a rather direct statement of belief. You brougth up "Tragedy of the Commons" and my reply was directly reated to that subject. For grins I just ran a Google search on Tragedy of the Commons and in the first link shown guess what? Coase is mentioned. How odd that you tell Jayb in a smart ass manner to look up Tragedy of the Commons and then ridicule me for bringing up Coase. Pretty lame. I am sure you are aware I was using the term Mandarin in this sense. [ Actually Matt what I said was this => "The popular vote can’t even be considered because the masses are confused by election advertising!" I never said that was a quote from you; however, it is an obvious conclusion from your writing. You did write this: maybe if they are elected representatives DO THEIR JOB and take action based upon a perception of the common good rather than upon corporate earnings and election contributions. In Matt's world the voters decieved by lobbyists and political parties vote into office representatives to govern according to certain values. These representatives should then listen to the mandarins and in favor of the common good do as they instruct. After all it's all for the public good, the masses have been deceived! The know not what they do. A scientist may make a direct connection between cars and global warming that everyone accepts as fact. That is the easy part. The hard part is deciding what to do about it. Billions of people with billions of values. Markets are designed for this kind of work. As a sidebar I would note that I have never been a fan of Rand.

You guys should have been on Overhang Overpass! Sure long approach for a short route but it's nice.

I was suggesting that “externalities” appear everywhere even in areas most would describe as completely non-market related. I then directly addressed the idea you brought forward of the “Tragedy of the Commons.” Coase’s Theorem directly relates to this concept. It suggests that in a perfect market externalities disappear if property rights are properly delineated – regardless of their initial allocation. I mention how imperfections (eg transaction costs) tend to limit the process described by the theorem. I them suggested that government control by increasing these costs would have the effect of increasing externalities compared to if the costs were reduced. (and everything else held equal) I am not sure what you think I thought I was rebutting. Obviously you missed the main point I was making. Matt let’s examine the parts of your post I bolded: your "poor Mexican" principal of seeking purchasing power above all else, will not likely vote in favor of emissions regulations that drive up the cost of purchase, and the consumer of electricity will not vote against coal plants for this reason either You are clearly saying that consumers will be short sighted and make decisions that they would not make if they knew something that some elite knows. At some level that is true: as information improves so do decisions; however, I think you are saying something more. The only way anything will EVER be done about these technology impacts is if "smart people" "in power" "thousands of miles away" who are likely "infinitely beter off" than the poor Mexican or even middle class American driver or power consumer, and who know "nothing about an individual driver's "particular circumstances" can read and digest the information despite the efforts of industry lobbyists. Here you go=> the only way for things to improve is if some “mandarin” class can somehow get to the information revealed by a group of “intellectuals” whose work is being suppressed by the evil capitalist. maybe if they are elected representatives DO THEIR JOB and take action based upon a perception of the common good rather than upon corporate earnings and election contributions. Now you suggest that those throwing the levers of power in government should take action based upon the common good as defined by the “Mandarin” and “intellectual” classes. The popular vote can’t even be considered because the masses are confused by election advertising! So why is this NAZI like? Well I will let you work this one out. But believe me you are not very far away…..

Jay, I guess your economic theory professor has never told you about the tragedy of the commons. Look it up some time. The very nature of many devastating free market "externalities" is that they are disperssed and less directly recognizable than any one consumer or voter can recognize. I have always thought the Tragedy of the Commons was a very poor example of externalities. For the most part it can be avoided through the proper delineation of property rights. A better example would be how my neighbor maintains his/her property. If they the put a lot of effort and money into their property their work would increase my property value. Of course if they parked old cars and washing machines in their front yard my property’s value would decrease. Land owners have often banded together and created “private rules and regulations” to limit this. For example, an area with Sound views may prohibit large trees. Coase’s Teorem formulated well before the Tragedy of the Commons article was developed out analyzing grazing practices essentially states that the externalities disappear with well define property rights regardless of the initial allocation of resources. (the usual caveats apply) so to the extent government (& attorneys too) increase transaction costs they also can have the perverse effect of increasing externalities. “Externalities are not anything unique to “Free Market” and free markets may tend to minimize their impact. The driver of an automobile or consumer of electricity has no way to observe their contribution to acid rain and global warming, but only scientists can figure out the relationship. The purchaser of an automobile, guided by your "poor Mexican" principal of seeking purchasing power above all else, will not likely vote in favor of emissions regulations that drive up the cost of purchase, and the consumer of electricity will not vote against coal plants for this reason either. In both cases, the industries have lobbyists deliberately preventing the flow of information back to the consumer/voter, but the impact of the technology remains clear. The only way anything will EVER be done about these technology impacts is if "smart people" "in power" "thousands of miles away" who are likely "infinitely beter off" than the poor Mexican or even middle class American driver or power consumer, and who know "nothing about an individual driver's "particular circumstances" can read and digest the information despite the efforts of industry lobbyists. Not only must these peoplle who you suggest have no right to intervene invest time and money to actively study the problem, they've got to then distribuite the information, take on GM or the Power Companies through a publicity campaign such as the WallMart effort that you find so distasteful, or maybe if they are elected representatives DO THEIR JOB and take action based upon a perception of the common good rather than upon corporate earnings and election contributions. In your first sentence you come very close to discovering a real truth but then you descend into something close to being a NAZI. By that I mean national socialist. Have the world controlled by institutions – an unholy alliance of corporate institutions mediated by an intellectual/political elite. Scary stuff there Matt.

Jayb - Don't confuse an intellectual not liking capitalism and intellectual = socialist. Nozick also wrote an essay enittled something like: "Who Would Choose Socialism." Again an interesting read. RHkgMLXY7wg

And here's where the fool trips over his own model. I've spent more than a year traveling various Latin American countries. You, apparently, have not, otherwise you would know that food in the local markets is much, MUCH cheaper that that found in any supermarket. Furthermore, it is homemade from fresh ingredients that are locally grown. Ie, the money stays in the community. The people in these countries that shop at big box grocery stores like Walmart do so because they can AFFORD THE CONVENIENCE of bulk packaging, processed foods, frozen meals, and preservatives, not because they can't afford to shop elsewhere. Your idiotic tortilla example, the basis for your entire argument here, really, is based on a your signature ignorance of the 'externalities' on the ground. And, like any good intellectual elitist, you will apply your model, ignoring realities even a casual tourist would realize within a couple days of an in country visit, until the very end because, in your own mind, YOU KNOW YOU MUST BE RIGHT. But you don't need any models, graphs, or tear jerking real life examples to best the intellectual elitists of the world. You'll find one staring right back at you in any mirror. Cough. "In recent months, as rising prices for U.S. corn pushed up the price of Mexico's corn tortilla, a staple for millions of poor, Wal-Mart could keep tortilla prices largely steady because of its long-term contracts with corn-flour suppliers. The crisis turned into free advertising for Wal-Mart, as new shoppers lined up for the cheaper tortillas. Here's what's behind your cheap American corn, Free Market Boy; US government subsidies. Just how many more times would you like me to step all over your dick in front of a live audience? How the US can export corn to Mexico, a corn producing nation I wonder if any of you intellectual heavyweights have ever read Ricardo......

And here's where the fool trips over his own model. I've spent more than a year traveling various Latin American countries. You, apparently, have not, otherwise you would know that food in the local markets is much, MUCH cheaper that that found in any supermarket. Furthermore, it is homemade from fresh ingredients that are locally grown. Ie, the money stays in the community. The people in these countries that shop at big box grocery stores like Walmart do so because they can AFFORD THE CONVENIENCE of bulk packaging, processed foods, frozen meals, and preservatives, not because they can't afford to shop elsewhere. Your idiotic tortilla example, the basis for your entire argument here, really, is based on a your signature ignorance of the 'externalities' on the ground. And, like any good intellectual elitist, you will apply your model, ignoring realities even a casual tourist would realize within a couple days of an in country visit, until the very end because, in your own mind, YOU KNOW YOU MUST BE RIGHT. But you don't need any models, graphs, or tear jerking real life examples to best the intellectual elitists of the world. You'll find one staring right back at you in any mirror. Cough. "In recent months, as rising prices for U.S. corn pushed up the price of Mexico's corn tortilla, a staple for millions of poor, Wal-Mart could keep tortilla prices largely steady because of its long-term contracts with corn-flour suppliers. The crisis turned into free advertising for Wal-Mart, as new shoppers lined up for the cheaper tortillas. Here's what's behind your cheap American corn, Free Market Boy; US government subsidies. Just how many more times would you like me to step all over your dick in front of a live audience? How the US can export corn to Mexico, a corn producing nation I wonder if any of you intellectual heavyweights have ever read Ricardo......

WOW Jim you are truly amazing. You talk about "intellectual honesty" yet you could not admit that you were wrong about what a Seattle Times article said. Have you no freakin shame? As far as straw man arguments go your post is a perfect example.......it also gets a good grade for being an ad hominem argument as well. By the way I have stated several times in threads you have participated in that the best "corporate" tax rate is zero. I know Jayb has argued against government subsidies in several threads. Chatter on.

The Missing Piece

And here's where the fool trips over his own model. I've spent more than a year traveling various Latin American countries. You, apparently, have not, otherwise you would know that food in the local markets is much, MUCH cheaper that that found in any supermarket. Furthermore, it is homemade from fresh ingredients that are locally grown. Ie, the poverty stays in the community. The people in these countries that shop at big box grocery stores like Walmart do so because they can AFFORD THE CONVENIENCE of bulk packaging, processed foods, frozen meals, and preservatives, not because they can't afford to shop elsewhere. Your idiotic tortilla example, the basis for your entire argument here, really, is based on a your signature ignorance of the 'externalities' on the ground. And, like any good intellectual elitist, you will apply your model, ignoring realities even a casual tourist would realize within a couple days of an in country visit, until the very end because, in your own mind, YOU KNOW YOU MUST BE RIGHT. But you don't need any models, graphs, or tear jerking real life examples to best the intellectual elitists of the world. You'll find one staring right back at you in any mirror. No one expresses crass parochialism more than a tourist….. link Of course common sesne would suggest that someone in Mexico City might not walk to the field to get his food.......

He wasn't framed..there was no real evidence to convict. Set up like a bowling pin...... Anyway check this out => What's up your rectum?

The Walrus is Paul

Maybe you need to start looking closer to home for that hot guy or gal

Word Maybe if we are lucky actually playing an instrument will become popular again....

I have to fly to a wedding on Saturday but may be climbing on the Calif. coast on Sunday!

It would not be an infringement if you posted a picture in the context of a review.

Talking Heads And it’s always enjoyable to sing: {insert partner’s name here} don’t be a hero don’t be a fool with your life…...

Ah I just checked out the rooftop video again...heavy

Ah I just checked out the rooftop video again...heavy

And as for book suggestions here's mine: Trading Up oddly I may have an extra copy around the house if anyone is interested.