Peter_Puget

I'll keep it short for AlpineK. Simply put statements like 'it is not economic for individuals or companies to do. Show a complete misunderstanding of let's say Mises and most of the basic libertarian thinkers. Rand tried to produce some silly philosophy of life and in my opinion is a sideshow, the Libertarians with a more economic background (generally of the Austrian School), Milton Friedman being one of the most prominent exceptions, confounded their colleagues by their insistence on the worthlessness of most of the commonly used macroeconomic data points (eg: national income accounts and so on) Mises himself titled his grand work "Human Action" and virtually eliminated most traditional economic analysis from its pages. These thinkers (RIGHTLY) held that all human purposeful action is the result of "economic" calculation and assert that the individual is supreme in his valuations. Economics is viewed as being as immutable as the tides. People are free to choose any form of government it wants but to the extent laws are enacted their effects can be predicted by the application of basic economic theory. In general their analysis and experiences made them suspicious of government intervention NOT because they were against the goals of the intervention but felt that the goals would be best reached via other methods.

Sexy - Mises (one of Libertarianism 20th century founding fathers and one of Mtgoats fav orgs namesake) and Rand while often thrown into the same camp. They are in fact not the same. In fact Mises is well known for his contemptuous ridculing of her philosophy to her face at a dinner party. [ 08-23-2002, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

What about the first pitch of Sagittarius at Index?

Still enjoying having a stereo again! Two more recomends: James "Blood" Ulmer: Tales of Captain Black (no recent stuff!) and almost anything by Henry Threadgill.

This is for MtnGoat: Those who wish to enact campaign finance "reform" legislation simply wish to use the polic epowers of the state to for the citizens to do something they would rather not do.

Trexlar is a good climb if I can remember it. Don't some larger cams come in handy? Is that off to the left of Minas Morgol? (sp?)

Hear the monster roar! [ 08-22-2002, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Off - Your wish is my....check out the post with the pic.

Sorry for the thread drift. Back to Godzilla now. Singing [ 08-22-2002, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Why no thave almost immediate posting of donations indicating quantity and donor posted to a web site. Let the people decide!!

Alright Sexy you had me sweating there. I had to back and see jus twhat I wrote! It was "most sportos who climb 5.13" Ambiguous to be sure but ambiguity saved me. To be clearer: I would add the word "routes" right after 5.13! Now I wish you never came back! Cheers PP

Hmm I always forget the thumbs up PP

quote: Originally posted by sexual chocolate: Now we're really getting into semantic mince-meat.... "All-around 5.11 climbers" can be shown 5.11s that they would piss their collective pants on. Which begs the question: What does it mean to be a solid 5.11 climber? If'n ya don't can't won't do a certain 5.11, ya ain't a "all-around 5.11 climber"? Well it does beg the question somewhat. What I would say is that those 5.11s one can't/won't climb would be "few." quote: PP: The term "few" places some conditional limits on a given context, regardless of one's peripatetic reasoning.... If I know a "few" climbers, this would limit that sample pool to perhaps 5 in size. Now if a few of those climb X, Y, or Z, "few" would still denote a number which the term refers to: "Amounting to or consisting of a small number: one of my few bad habits. Being more than one but indefinitely small in number: bowled a few strings." (per www.dictionary.com) So given this sordid state of affairs, ALL of my 5.13 climber buds could be "all-around 5.11 climbers", since the sample pool is but a "few".... Ummmm....so there. Well it is nice if they all are. That still doesn't change my argument anymore than the probability of having "heads" come up the next time you flip a coin changes after it comes up heads 10 times in a row just before the flip in question. But I do question your use of the dictionary. It is not the word "few" that enables you to not be inconsistent by now claiming that ALL your 5.13 friends are solid all-around 5.11 leaders. But your previous use of the word "least". Here it is: at least a few of the 5.13 climbers I know are quite good on trad, with 5.12 gear on-sight abilities. Please less time in the gym and more in school! By the way any volunteers to tow me up Mary's Tears/Crucifx? PP

quote: Originally posted by sexual chocolate: BTW, PP, 12c trad onsight, yet only V3 bouldering? Those are lopsided enough numbers to make Dwayner jealous.... Been climbing along time.

To those who think money plays too big a role in political campaigns I would ask the following: Think about what is at stake. The US economy, world wide economy, possible wars or not wars, the enviroment and so forth. Now tell me what thats worth and without reference tell me how much is spent campaigning. Now tell me without looking what spent on advertising for something like say dish soap. Now dish soap or what ever you've chosen is probably a very small market relative to what's at stake in a politcal debate. And yet for many every day things much more is spent on advertising. What I find amazing is that we care so little that we spend so little. By the way Dru is Canada even a real country? I have some money at home with some queen on it? Who is she ruling!

Quote by RUMR form Godzilla Thread :"I think the key to these guys was their training programs/climbing volume of which a significant portion was plastic and sport climbing. Mr. Dwayner would be hard pressed to find a "trad-only" guy that could go w/ them regarding enthusiasm/love for climbing or technical ability. And he can say whatever he pleases, the proof is in the pudding." Not at all there are lots of guys I could think of and I am sure Off could too. Besides I am not sure Dwayner was claiming sportos do not have enthusiasm, love for climbing or technical ability; however, if he was picking one or two exceptions to a rule sort of proves it. By the way I have climbed with both these gents and I would say that if Andy asked if I wanted a tow up Mary's Tears or Geek Towers I'd say yep. If the other did, I'd suggest something more modest. PP

quote: Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing: Thanks for clearing that up. In that case, PP's point is poop (heh-heh). Obviously, most sport climbers who consider themselves solid on 5.whatever are probably talking sport routes if they don't climb trad. So if we're talking about not being a solid 5.11+ climber in that respect, yeah, it probably applies. But as far as sportness goes, DFA can't imagine a 5.13 sportiste not being solid on 5.11 sport routes. Inconceivable! Hey silly Dr. I saidall-around 5.11. To much time in flash school! Off - Isn't amazing these guys don't know about Mary's/Crucifx? PP [ 08-22-2002, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Dwayner - You promised to keep my identity secret!

DFA - Only one was a slab. But I hear you about autumn arriving soon. I plan to go down to Smith and work on a few projects. Great thing about old age is I don't have any pretense of flashing them so routes I put off because I didn't want to taint them in the 80's are now up for grabs. (So are the draws for that matter) I don't have much chance of redpointing any but I'll have fun working them. See you in the Fall! PP

Erik - People like that are an ideal for living!

Check this out: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/9640/

quote: Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing: quote:Sayeth Peter Puget: Hey Sexy I said that bit about 4th being closer to 5.11 than 5.11 is to .14c but I would also add that the trade off for specialization is that mostsportos who climb .13 are not even all around .11c leaders. Actually over the year sI have met very few people who are. PP This thing about most sportants (that's legitimate French, don't bother looking it up ) who climb 5.13 not being all-around .11c climbers just doesn't seem likely. There might be some 5.11 climbers who take a thrash away on 5.13s and can do a good few of the moves, but it's a long way from doing a few of the moves to actually sending 5.13. It takes a lot of time and work to climb 5.13 (or, for that matter, whatever your upper-limit grade might be), and it's got to be a rare soul who can climb that hard and not be solid on hard 5.11. Many (most) .13s are made up of some quantity of 5.12 moves strung together, and the amount of climbing at the 5.12 level one needs to do to succeed on a .13 pretty much ensures that a person is going to have the wherewithall to climb hard .11s, and probably onsight at that. But, for the sake of discussion, have you met very many sportistes who can climb 5.13 but aren't solid on hard .11s? 'Cause that strikes the Doctor as right amazing if you have. AH Dr. - I stand fully by what I said and will explain a bit further. I have worked on some sport routes year sagon and succeeded on some rated .13 and never onve considered myself a 11+ all around leader. I know several Seattle folk who have sent several Smith .13s and woudln't presume to think they were all around .11+ leaders. It is truly the rare bird who can for example Jump on Mary's Tears/Crucifix (even with a few point sof aid at the crux)and get to the top. I would guess very few of those who redpointed a .13 within the last few months could. Very few could go to climb Cream as well. Very few could go climb Swiss Orange Chip in Toulumne. This is no insult simply the facts. Being an all around 5.11 climber is quite an achievement. So is climbing 5.13. Very few could walk up and climb one of the difficult 5.11 routes on the Diamond. I would only add that from my perspective the former is more difficult than the latter. Glad you came to the site DFA! PP

Now Sexy a few of a few is a very small number indeed.

Originally posted by sexual chocolate: quote: PP, maybe sport-climbing is the only thing that interests them? Take the average 5.13 sporty, teach him/her some traddie techniques, and I bet quickly they would be able to lead 5.12 trad....Sport-climbing gives the same athleticism required on harder trad, don't you think?Sorry screwed this up here is PPs rejoinder: Well I'd disagree; climbing is a big world. Just like school yard bullies pick their victims so do climbers pick their climbs. For example: Once I lead a .12c trad onsight and backed off a runout .10 the next day. Often trad routes require a combination of skills with athleticism being only a minor player. I can think of many fairly hard trad routes that I would not call athletic at all. Anyway my comments were related to specialization in general and were not about the relative attractiveness of one style of climbing over another. If I fleshed out my argument a bit more I would think it would end with the conclusion that the best way to train for rock climbing would be to do everything with sport climbing being a great way to train for altheticism and other things - sport climbing is a fine end in and of itself. As someone else mentioned "it's all good." And that is truely the great thing about climbing. Bouldering, sport, trad, alpine each is different and yet each is incredibly cool in so many ways. For example: Sexy, you and I could go out bouldering and your could send V10s and I could struggle up V3s and each of us could be having the time of our lives. The difference in the difficulty of the routes we climb having little impact on our enjoyment. Climbing (and Allison) just simply !!!!! BAck to SC's original responce: quote: BTW, at least a few of the 5.13 climbers I know are quite good on trad, with 5.12 gear on-sight abilities....SC - Well "a few" proves my point! Sorry messed up in responding my comments are buried in the bold above as well as below. I fixed it. Finally figured out thatbold stuff. [ 08-22-2002, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Hey Sexy I said that bit about 4th being closer to 5.11 than 5.11 is to .14c but I would also add that the trade off for specialization is that mostsportos who climb .13 are not even all around .11c leaders. Actually over the year sI have met very few people who are. PP