Peter_Puget

Ok Stupid question it maybe but here goes... What exactly is a rest day? More to the point, lets say I have a hard climbing/workout day and am due for a rest day. Does running/bike riding at a moderate level negate the "rest"? Doe srest really mean nothing?

Ok I admit that my earlier posts on this thread were somewhat smart-alecky in nature but they also held a grain of truth and here is a more serious reply. Quote from Offwhite: "I think that if you want to be quintessential NW hardman, you have to think in terms of Alpine. Face it, the cragging here just doesn't rate in terms of the big picture. Would you drive 3000 miles to climb at Index? Me either. Don't get me wrong, I think there is good cragging here, but its not the major component of the vision of NW Climbing, If you're after recognition as a hard sport climber, you go elsewhere to make a name for yourself. Come to think of it, if you're after recognition as an alpine climber, you go elsewhere too. Its not as if Jim Donini made his name on the basis of his regional ascents. Perhaps the quintessential NW hardman is content with obscurity, hence the indifference to the nomenclature." Oddly in the 80's several of the nations most publicized "rockjocks" did jus that. Namely Hugh Herr flew in from the East Coast, Todd Skinner from Wyoming, Alan Watts drove up from Smith, Russ Clune form (I think at that point) Southern California. In the past a large part of the talent in WA rock climbing left the state for extended periods of time. Think of Dick Cilley, Steve Gerberding, Brooke Sandal or Pat Timson or more recently Mike Schaeffer for example. (for those Canadians we can even add Peter Croft to the mix) I have climbed at some point with all these guys (except Mike) and can say that they are all pretty damn hard. The at least showed me how soft I am. Many of those who remained in the State chose to do their hard climbing out of the state. For example of a local alpinist think of Steve Swensen. This is even true of imports from elsewhere - for example Donini or Grossman. In the Alpine scene many of the modern routes were first ascended during times of deep freezes. In the 80s there several years of settled cold weather. Even I was induced to go out on the ice and once almost convinces to try the Upper Wall Falls. Something I haven't seen really frozen in over a decade. After a very quick review of the CAG I believe that there is a definite correspondence between these cold spells and the first ascent s of these modern alpine routes. Many of those who I remember being really active in WA alpine new routing left the area. Some like Twight aspiring to fame claiming that the difficulties here are weak. Now by weak I mean not up to cutting edge alpinism based on a world view. So if is he isn't cutting edge difficulty or even ability does the NW hardman exist? I say yes. And his/her definig features are can be clearly defined. A NW hardman is an explorer, willing to follow his indiosyncratic notions (often times to the extreme) and is content and happy in doing so. Think back to Beckey, he was not on the cutting edge of climbing for long at all (if ever) yet his insatiable appetite for discovery and climbing has made him the FA king of the 20th century. More recently look at Pete Doorish's adventures in trying to find "big Walls" in WA. While others shook their heads in disbelief he pioneered such celebrated routes such as the Norwegian Buttress or Bear Mountain. I do not believe that these routes are anywhere near as hard as say the Jolly Roger route yet they are quintessential NW hardman routes. And quite amazing in their own right. I think their defining features are not so much in the quality of their climbing but in the quality of the FA. Now how does this relate to the thread in question? I would say that the NW hardman tick list cannot be comprised of existing routes. It can only be created by the individual as he/she follows his/her own bliss in a series of exploration and discovery.

Mattp - It seems at first that you are talking sense but a quick review of climbing history repeatedly shows that the "Rock Jocks" easily move into alpine territory and shred the existing scene. Long Live Rock!

Free your minds! The hardest climb is probably buried beneath the forest canopy. THIS is the modern World! [ 11-19-2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Dwayner's Secret Project

Yeow How can you guys remember all those details. I have climbed Godzilla a bunch but don't remember as much as you all. here is an idea for this mighty climb. A topo should be posted with as much detail as humanly possible the ULTIMATE supertopo for a one pitch route!

Isn't the crux on Godzilla the last move unless you are tall?

Trask has merely been out of the area organizing his own special brand of politcal action: A Bit risque but it is trask at work after all! PP

quote: Originally posted by Al Pine: Noone climbs that route because a) the bottom is a choice of bolted moss or grovel crack Dont remember the bolted start but the crack was fun. Harder and steeper than it looks too then a traverse to a belay. The next pitch is short corner with a steep part before the top. Finally a short slabby pitch. The variation in the guide isn't as good as what I have described here. c) the trail has been destroyed Nope just rerouted a bit. PP

Hey isn't Einstien's Relatives a great rout ename?

I don't think they kick but but on crowded days Godzilla can be a bit of a scene so I usually am up for something different. While the same can be said sometimes for GM, often there is no comparison. That route to the left of Rattletale is pretty good to although it's a bit harder. No one even seems to go there.

Ah J_B - Let me help you out here. Context. Context Context. I have merely asserted that the Israelis are better than their opposition. You have presented no argument against this. But you have posted a series of posts illustrating bad behavior by the Israelis. You have also accused them of War Crimes and Genocide. I also pointed out clear instances where some of the journalists working for some of organizations behind your links have made representations of facts that were clearly not true and I believe they have done so knowingly to further a political agenda. The quotes I posted are unequivocal and clearly at such odds with reality that calling such distortions out can only be considered a smear campaign in the world 1984. Didn't one Guardian editor once said something like: "Opinions are free the truth costs." As such my posts have helped to provide context for your links. I have repeatedly said that a mere listing of bad behavior was a waste of time. After all how can one judge what is being presented? Do the number of violations of proper behavior count or do they have to be weighted differently according to some cosmic scale? Does your reference to a village being destroyed in 1948 count less because it is old? It would be easy for me to go to many sites and post many links showing the opposite of what your links claim. Again it would be meaningless without a context and an argument to frame them. Now I clearly I have suggested that you have not been engaging in a honest discussion but rather have been using these threads as an opportunity to post items advocating your point of view. (think of a Sunday morning talk show where the politician guest says his prepared line regardless of the question) Here is an example form the first post on this thread:: You begin by quoting MtnGoat: MtnGoat: Israel: Constition, laws, rights, religous freedom. Palestinians and their islamic supporters: none of these You then respond: MtnGoat is poorly informed: http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/return.html http://academic.udayton.edu/race/06hrights/VictimGroups/Palestinans/palestinans02.htm in other words, it's not much different than what we did to the American Indians except times have changed and a little powder in the eye (barely) is needed to maintain appearances. When your links are read it is clear they are about the Israelis only. As such they do not address Mtngoats second claim regarding the Palestinians. The links lead to some writings by Uri Davis here are some important quotes from those links From the first link: In 1950 the Israeli Knesset passed two laws They(Arabs who left Israeli during the many wars) are excluded by law from actual or p~aential citizenship in the Jewish state Second link: Apartheid is an exceptional form of racial discrimination predicated upon the enforcement of racism in law through Acts of Parliament Certainly from these quotes it is obvious that you are not denying the Constitution and laws part of Mtngoat's claim. As far as I can see the references to rights in your links refer to those who are not considered Israeli citizens. As such you links do not say anything to Mtngoat's claim regarding rights. As far as religious freedom your links are basically silent. Thus I can only conclude you have not proved your case that Mtngoat is incorrect and the evidence you appeared to be providing was in reality nonexistent. Your first link also refers to a tragedy /massacre at Al-Duwayma (1948) Now if I was to point to the relocation of Japanese Americans as a refutation to someone's claim that in the US we have rights I would be called a buffoon. But I would also point out that the conquering battalion was in a state of war at the time as war imposed the nascent state of Israel by the Arabs. (pointing this out is called providing a context) again your reply was truly not truly a rejoinder to Mtngoat's claim but merely the opportunity to "smear" I have also pointed out some ridiculous analogies you made such as comparing American Indians and Westward expansion to the situation in Israel. Further I believe you are smart enough to know the analogy was flawed and used it merely to associate genocide with the Israelis. As I have said usage of such terminology is the result of a political agenda not a analytical one. I even added in some Palestinian references to show they were in on the word usage too. I find such a political campaign closer (as in identical) to a smear campaign than anything I have engaged in. I find it telling that you have never once answered any of my questions concerning Arab behavior. My sense is deep down you know the Israelis are much closer to conforming to the ideal enshrined in the UN declaration you have posted and for some reason refuse to admit it. PP

Chuck - I am by no means against all taxation. In general I am suspicious of sumptorory taxation, taxation designed to channel economic growth or reward certain behaviors. I have become very scared of 'user fees.' User fees are odd in that they appear so reasonable yet I believe ultimately have a terrible impact. Years ago I was very pro user fees but after too many conversations on the way to crags especially after the Forest Service Fee was set up I was convinced by an occasional poster here that they were most often in his words:"the embodiment of evil. What I find unfair about the death tax is that it penalizes those who save and rewards those who spend. It is truly double taxation. In my example a hard working guy gets screwed because he and his wife chose to save and invest their money in a house. Besides the patent unfairness of this I also think it causes distortions in behavior that are not to the country's benefit.

quote: Originally posted by Jim: But you're exempt if you have less than $2 million! It's only collected from 1.4% of tax payers, those that have quite a lot, and enough money to avoid as much tax as possible. The marginal tax rates are now at their lowest in 65 years. They have been declining steadily the past 10 years. While the upper (and I mean upper) class have been clicking their heels the middle (what's left of it) and the bottom tax brackets are losing ground. That doesn't seem fair to me. As a practical matter the 2 million exemption doesn't exist. What exactly do you mean by marginal tax rate lowest in years please me quite specific with your response. Inequalities that appear elsewhere in the tax code do not justify an unjust taxation elsewhere. My example was quite specific and quite possible. Remember my hero is not in what is usually consiodered a rich man's profession. I'll modify it a bit. The wife dies of breast cancer now and in ten years the husband dies. Are you suggesting that a wrong inflicted by our government on a small percentage of the population is ok? PP

I am concerned about properness of the tax in the first place. I am not an expert but all the methods I know to avoid the tax have down sides esp given that the tax is unfair in the first place. But a "perfect" tax code would not lend itself to encouraging wasted labor on avoidance and effectively act as subsidy to lawyers and CPAs PP

Here is a true example: A construction worker and his GF decide to live frugally and on one of there income. They do so get married and my the time they are in their late 20s have almost 300 in cash set aside. Now they buy a nice house in the late 80s i what has become a fshionable part of the eastside. So far this example is true of a WA climber. Now 10 years from now they die. Their estate will now be subject to an onerous estate tax. Simply because they chose to save their money the government now has the right to half of it after it had already been taxed. PP

It's ok Jim your quick reply saved me from posting some other links:)

quote: Originally posted by Jim: old inheritance tax info, now repealed for 3 years, which may go permanant under this Congress. Draw your own conclusions: Estates $1 million – and effectively double that amount for spouses – are exempt from the tax. The tax is collected only from the richest 1.4 percent – and two thirds of the inheritance tax revenues comes from the wealthiest .2 percent. And there are options for gifting if you do it over an extended period (IRS 2002)(I'm summarizing) Was it repealed for three year scompletely or phased out? If the former I am wrong for three years.

quote: Originally posted by j_b: I just want to remind everyone interested in understanding where this flurry of attacks comes from that they should read the links provided. These texts are not from anyone's press in particular, they are opinions and witness accounts by people with a good knowledge of the israeli state, often israeli citizens themselves.I am always surprised when someone's wrong doing are justified by someone else's. it is really this kind of logic that allowed the situation to deterorates to what it is today. I really don't feel I have anything to add, rants of dubious logic won't take us very far (for those interested in getting somewhere). Ah J-B here is a copied link from earlier in this thread. http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=344510 Isn't this someone's press. Don't the organizations you linked to have an express political purpose? If so they are someone's voice. Your first post to this thread you suggest that it is an extension of an earlier thread. In that thread you posted clear references to Gaurdian and the Nation. You even asked why I didn't respond to the particulars of the stories. My response was that posting rants from various interest groups proved nothing. I still belive it does. But I thought I'd buttress that claim by exposing the obvious mistruths printed in some of your quoted sources. So for the first part of yoru quote above I call BS. I have never justified Israel's poor behavior (and I believe Mtngoat hasn't either) and I ask that if you think I have show mme an example. As I pointed out several times you have avoided directly answering any questions regarding Arab behavior. I repeat since I (and I believe MG) have been making comparitive judgements not to due so shows "dubious" logic at best. I do not doubt that atrocities have been committed by both sides. This has never been disputed. I do find the current claim of "war crimes" and "genocide" to be of part and parcel of propganda supporting a political campaign not a serious anaysis of the situation. Your uncritical use and progation of such statements leads me to conclude you are merely a propagandizer. If calling you that is an attack then so be it. PP [ 11-14-2002, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

The problem with the tax is simple - unintended consequences. The goal should be to reduce them to as close to zero as possible. As such economic analysis can only go so far. At some point human behavior comes into play as crass politics. In general I imagine the best system would be simple and predictable. Unbelievably from this thread I can only conclude that I am one of those selfish rich fucks stealing from the poor and contributing nothing. Oddly I seem to live modestly and have to pay attention to my bills. My parent's estate if they were to die today would be subject to the death tax and yet they worry about affording to care for my father as his health and mental acuity decline. As a result when ever I hear people spewing shit about rich and poor and taxes I tend to shut down. Just a quick question why doesn't everyone state their ages. 45 PP

quote: Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing: What are you two, gay or something? You say that like it is bad or something!

quote: Originally posted by j_b: quote: MtnGoat: Israel: Constition, laws, rights, religous freedom. Palestinians and their islamic supporters: none of these MtnGoat is poorly informed: http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/return.html [url=http://academic.udayton.edu/race/06hrights/VictimGroups/Palestinans/palestinans02.htm]http://academic.udayton.edu/race/06hrights/VictimGroups/Palestinans/palestinans02.htm[/uR L] in other words, it's not much different than what we did to the American Indians except times have changed and a little powder in the eye (barely) is needed to maintain appearances. sorry about the new thread but the original one does not take replies Mtngoat, I think J_B's initial post to this thread needs a rethink in view of later posts: It seems that he has in fact affirmed your Israel claim. He has indicated that he doesn't like Israeli law but that does not negate the fact that there are in fact laws and that Israelis are held to them. He has one glaring omission: he does not provide support for the Palestinians and their Islamic supporters having these. He can't because they don't. Not only do the majorities in these societies not have these rights, but the minorities are even worse off. He is merely a propagandist. He also never responded to my question regarding how many "Palestinians" were killed by the Jordanian government. He never addresses the Arab countries at all despite the fact that your and my claims being comparative in nature. Here is a great quote by that honorable man Abu Abbas, you know the guy that organized the Achille Laurel hijacking during which Leon Klinghoffer (age 69 and in a wheelchair) was shot and thrown into the sea concerning Iraq:"Iraq continues to affirm, through President Saddam Hussein, our legitimate rights as Arabs to freedom, independence, and use of our own resources." Ah freedom, Independence use of own resources can you believe he actually said that. Amazing! By the way didn't he just have an unfortunate illness in Bagdad? It would be interesting to review public declarations and written comment to see just when the genocide type of comment became the buzzword de jour. But it is consistently used and like Saddam's recent reply to the UN (which I recommend everyone read) sounds strikingly like the NAZI's of old. This is not surprising when the popularity of Mein Kampf and Protocol of the Elders of Zion in Arabs countries are considered. J-B brings a North American reference into the mix with his "what we did to the Indians" comment. I would think the comparison fitting if the US was in the size and location of the state of Rhode Island and the Indians (occupying the surrounding territory) openly declared on several occasions that their intended goal was to wipe all settlers and push the survivors into the Atlantic Ocean. Then after the Indians tried and failed to do so several times the citizens of Rhode Island ended up occupying a few square miles of Connecticut which they were willing to give back 97% of to achieve a peace settlement. But alas that is simply not the case. The reference is simply absurd serving a political rather than a analytical purpose. PP

quote: Originally posted by j_b: Webster Main Entry: geno·cide Pronunciation: 'je-n&-"sId Function: noun Date: 1944 : the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group Ah so given this we (ie western culture and the US in particular) is the victim of genocide by Al Qaeda. Now even I will say that is ridiculus but so is J_B's genocide assertion it is merely the corruption of the language for crass poilitical purposes. One Mafia crime family wiping out another could be genocide. Note herr dimwitted one (J_B) that my post showed several things. 1. the unreliabilty of your favorite press. 2. it implied that the gross misrepresentation of event by your press must be purposeful 3. illustrated how lies are part of your and the Palestinian process For an example of genocide I think a far better example would be in the Sudan or in Indonesia. Come on J_B how many Christians have been killed in those locations precisely because they are Christian? How many have been forcefully circumsized? I bet you don't know. I know it is greater than the Palestinians killed in Israeli conflict. And yet the financial supporters of the Jihadists there are the same supporters if the Palestinians. Arafat called the Jenin incident "Jeningrad" bringing up a WW2 reference which also brings up German oppression and genocide (ie war crimes)yet during the seige of Leningrad Russians were falling at a rate of about 1,000/per day. About 1.5 million Russians died in Stalingrad. The fighting was a quantum leap greater than Jenin to the point where any comparison is simply goofy. I would say look at the numbers of Vietnamise killed during the Tet offensive. American's had a staggering kill to loss ratio. Yet the Iraelis killed Palestinians at a 2:1 ratio to their losses. I am sure we'd all agree that the Israelis are some of the best trained soldiers on the planet and the "general" population of Jenin not rigorously trained. The only rational conclusion one can make regarding the high number of Israeli casualties is that they tried like hell notto cause indiscriminant carnage - too the point where they lost soldiers because of it. How many were killed in the LA riots after the Rodney King verdict? Checkout this link and read a much better example of a desired genocide. Real Genocide Note also how J_B continuously ridicules in his responses. Sad. Especially given the low level of his argumentation. The use of dimwitted earlier was stolen from him. PP [ 11-14-2002, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Shhh don't reveal my secret!