Peter_Puget

Quote "I think that Peter's summary of some fanatic Islamic interpretation of of the Koran are prime examples of reglion used for slanted purposes, I would argure that there is nothing inherent in Islam, or any other religion. Just lots of folks willing to justify their actions." Response: I would argue that is just completely in error. First you claim my first quote is a fanatic interpretation of Islam. Since you know this to be true can you respond without delay to outside reference the person I am quoting's place in Islamic philosophy? In the second part of your statement you say that there is nothing inherent in any religion? What you are really saying that "ideas" have no power? No effect on how we act? Unfortunately such a train of thought is nothing but nonsense. Quote: "And actually Islam has no corner on the violence market" Response: Never said it did. Your "look at the Crusades", "look at anti abortion" mode of debate reminds me of my two girls each blaming the other when they are caught doing something wrong. The sad fact is ideas and cultures do matter. To deny this is simply silly chatter. As far as religion being malleable I would agree and the funny thing is the best example of that to my mind has always been Buddhism in Japan.

The greatest PBS documentary joke ever was the showing of the film "Harvest of Sorrow" Basically a documentary of Robert Conquest's research into the terror famines in the Soviet Union. I remember distinctly how due to the controversial nature of the film they had a "well reasoned" board discuss how "one-sided" it was and so on. A blue ribbon panel of experts (wanker intellectuals) in essence showed how fucked up the film was. Of course with the fall of the Soviet Union the Conquest's scholarship was completely vindicated. Somewhere I read a listing showing how these same experts were still being called upon to help clarify and explain current Russian US relations. Think about this: estimates vary but at least as many were starved in the Ukraine as died in the Gas Chambers and these freaking experts denied the whole thing! Some estimates go as high as 11million died. The story (this part perhaps not entirely true but still possible to those who have read RCs works he is also a poet)goes continues with Conquest's publisher wanted to reprint his work but wanting him to create a new title. His response was said to be something along the lines of: "I told you fucking so!" Given the incredibly PC and highly politicized nature of so called ME studies" programs I would expect any PBS show to be nothing more than another collection of this same type of expert.

One more thing to consider: How fun is Monkey Lip to climb with all those rusty pins?

Here are some things I would consider: 1. Is the route worthy of a fixed piece? Ie: is it easily TR'd; is the climbing good? 2. Did your cleaning (ie detailed preinspection) of the route significantly ease the placement of the equalized pieces? 3. Will the accumulation of grime make these placements not viable in the future? 4 What happens if the piece fails? 5 Will a pin be stolen or rusty to the point of uselessness in a year or two? Since you have the best info, don't let this board weigh too much in your decision! PP

Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406), perhaps the preeminent Islamic scholar in history, summarized five centuries of prior Muslim jurisprudence with regard to the uniquely Islamic institution of jihad: In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the [Muslim] mission and [the obligation to] convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force... The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty for them, save only for purposes of defense... Islam is under obligation to gain power over other nations. During the modern era, between 1894-96, the Ottoman Turks massacred over 200,000 Christian Armenians, followed by the first formal genocide of the 20th century, in 1915, at which time they slaughtered an additional 600,000 to 800,000 Armenians. Contemporary accounts from European diplomats confirm that these brutal massacres were perpetrated in the context of a formal jihad against the Armenians who had attempted to throw off the yoke of dhimmitude by seeking equal rights and autonomy. For example, the Chief Dragoman (Turkish-speaking interpreter) of the British embassy reported regarding the 1894-96 massacres: [The perpetrators] are guided in their general action by the prescriptions of the Sheri [sharia] Law. That law prescribes that if the "rayah" [dhimmi] Christian attempts, by having recourse to foreign powers, to overstep the limits of privileges allowed them by their Mussulman [Muslim] masters, and free themselves from their bondage, their lives and property are to be forfeited, and are at the mercy of the Mussulmans. To the Turkish mind the Armenians had tried to overstep those limits by appealing to foreign powers, especially England. They therefore considered it their religious duty and a righteous thing to destroy and seize the lives and properties of the Armenians" Sufi Islam as practiced in the Indian subcontinent was quite intolerant of Hinduism, as documented by the Indian scholar K. S. Lal (The Legacy of Muslim Rule in India [1992], p. 237): The Muslim Mushaikh [sufi spiritual leaders] were as keen on conversions as the Ulama, and contrary to general belief, in place of being kind to the Hindus as saints would, they too wished the Hindus to be accorded a second class citizenship if they were not converted. Only one instance, that of Shaikh Abdul Quddus Gangoh, need be cited because he belonged to the Chishtia Silsila considered to be the most tolerant of all Sufi groups. He wrote letters to the Sultan Sikandar Lodi, Babur, and Humayun to re-invigorate the Shariat [sharia] and reduce the Hindus to payers of land tax and jizya. To Babur he wrote, "Extend utmost patronage and protection to theologians and mystics... that they should be maintained and subsidized by the state... No non-Muslim should be given any office or employment in the Diwan of Islam... Furthermore, in conformity with the principles of the Shariat they should be subjected to all types of indignities and humiliations. They should be made to pay the jizya...They should be disallowed from donning the dress of the Muslims and should be forced to keep their Kufr [infidelity] concealed and not to perform the ceremonies of their Kufr openly and freely; They should not be allowed to consider themselves the equal to the Muslims."

Smarty!

your climbing future http://www.accessfund.org/ CAVE ROCK ACTION ALERT! December 5, 2002 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Forest Service To Prohibit Climbing At Cave Rock, NV ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cave Rock, a well-known crag on the south shore of Lake Tahoe, could be closed to climbing as early as this month to accommodate the religious concerns of the local Washoe tribe. The Access Fund has been working for over eight years to keep Cave Rock open to climbing, but the new preferred management alternative of the Forest Service would eliminate all climbing activities at the site. Other "noninvasive recreation" such as hiking, picnicking, stargazing, boating, and fishing would be allowed to continue at Cave Rock. Likewise, use of the four-lane highway that tunnels through the sacred site will remain unchanged. The Forest Service’s Cave Rock decision could influence management decisions across the country and serve as a basis for closing any climbing area that is also considered a traditional cultural property. WASHOE CONCERNS WITH CLIMBING: In the Washoe Tribe's view, the physical effects of rock climbing and the mere presence of climbers on the rock are considered to be insensitive, distracting, and incompatible with their traditional spiritual activities. In addition, rock climbing "affects the setting, feel, and association" of the Cave Rock traditional cultural property (TCP), a legal property designation protected under the National Historic Preservation Act (NHPA). Washoe elders have expressed specific concern regarding female climbers at the site, noting that the presence of women is a particular desecration. According to the Washoe, the intimate contact between climbers and Cave Rock leads to an exchange of power between the rock and climbers that affects the TCP. Thus, vehicles traveling through the tunnels are transitory and do not affect the rock as much as climbers. The Washoe would prefer that only their recognized spiritual doctors be allowed access to Cave Rock; the Forest Service has accommodated their wishes only to the extent that climbers will be excluded -- all other recreational and transportation uses will be allowed to continue unchanged. THE ACCESS FUND'S POSITION: Because Cave Rock is public property, the Forest Service has an obligation to explore management alternatives that do not unfairly benefit one group at the expense of another (especially where religious preferences are concerned). Indeed, a mandatory closure to climbing at Cave Rock raises significant Constitutional concerns. There are numerous examples across the country where federal land managers have effectively balanced cultural concerns with recreational use, including: Hueco Tanks, Devils Tower (AKA Bear Lodge), and the Red River Gorge. The Access Fund believes that the majority of climbers in the United States are sympathetic to Native American concerns and will sacrifice climbing opportunities to respect Native American religion -- without the burden of exclusionary regulations. This belief is substantiated by the results of the voluntary closure at Devils Tower, which has led to a remarkable 85% (or more) decline in climber visitation during the month of June. The Access Fund believes that climbers will and should support a similar policy at Cave Rock, and that the Forest Service should select Alternative 2 (Manage Sport Climbing to Reduce Effects on Cave Rock TCP) -- and allow climbers to voluntarily respect Washoe religious concerns. Likewise, the AF believes that the preferred alternative (Alternative 6, the Maximum Immediate Protection of Heritage Resource) is too extreme a management direction and inevitably raises serious Constitutional concerns. THE PROPOSED CLOSURE IS ONLY NOW AVAILABLE FOR PUBLIC COMMENT: The Forest Service threatened to close Cave Rock several years ago. At that time, the Access Fund was successful in convincing the agency that Cave Rock should remain open to climbing and provided a joint education effort that encouraged climbers to climb elsewhere out of respect for Washoe religious beliefs. In 1998, with the urging of the Access Fund, the Forest Service released a draft plan for Cave Rock with a preferred alternative allowing climbing. The climbing community submitted comments and supported this former preferred alternative. The new restrictive preferred alternative that prohibits climbing was not part of the 1998 draft Cave Rock plan. It is only now available for public review and comment. PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO COMMENT ON THIS NEW PLAN BY THE DECEMBER 15 DEADLINE The recently issued Cave Rock Management Direction Environmental Impact Statement can be viewed at http://www.r5.fs.fed.us/ltbmu/management/projects/cave_rock/. Write the Forest Service in support of Alternative 2 and oppose Alternative 6. Alternative 2 would allow public access, including rock climbing, to the National Forest at Cave Rock. However, climbing would be managed to decrease the current level of use by reducing the number of climbing routes. Thus, under Alternative 2, most existing routes will remain accessible, however no new routes or bolt installation would be permitted. Maintenance of existing routes by climbers would be conducted only with prior permission from the Forest Service. Tell the Forest Service that selecting Alternative 2 and allowing for a voluntary closure at Cave Rock is the best way to balance recreational and Native American interests. Write to: Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit Attn: Cave Rock 870 Emerald Bay Road, Suite 1 South Lake Tahoe, CA 96150 Or email John Maher, Archaeologist for the Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit, at jmaher@fs.fed.us ALSO: YOUR COMMENTS WILL HAVE MORE IMPACT IF YOU WRITE, FAX OR EMAIL COPIES OF THEM TO FOLLOWING MEMBERS OF CONGRESS AND THE SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE: The Honorable Scott McInnis Chair, Subcommittee of Forests and Forest Health United States House of Representatives 320 Cannon House Office Building Washington, D.C. 20515-0603 Fax: (202) 226-0622 The Honorable Jim Gibbons Subcommittee on National Parks, Recreation and Public Lands United States House of Representatives 100 Cannon House Office Building Washington, D.C. 20515-2802 Fax: (202) 202-225-5679 The Honorable Ann M. Veneman Secretary of Agriculture U.S. Department of Agriculture Washington, D.C. 20250 agsec@usda.gov ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ VIRTUAL TIMES POLICIES: 1. The Access Fund office in Boulder is the only source of outgoing messages to the lists. 2. The AF will not sell or give away email addresses of V-Times subscribers. 3. V-Times is an announcement-only e-mail list; therefore, you cannot reply to any of the list members, and all e-mail addresses will remain confidential. 4. Send comments or news to john@accessfund.org

Just got around to reading this thread. here is a fun link to play around with: Click on the fall simulator One this whole discussion got me thinking about is the usefulness of lots of crappy pro even if its function is simply to mimick a "screamer." Last week I climbed Desert Song in J-Tree. The second pitch has difficult to protect climbing right off the belay. Every thing was bomber at the belay but who wants to hold a 30' factor 2 fall? Our solution was to dump some more pieces effectively creating an additional anchor for a directional and then place a few pieces we expected to blow out in case of a fall. PP

Why he found it at the super groovy NWOG.org site! Scott strikes again!

SOmebody help before Saturday! P-L-E-A-S-E

After seeing that nobady voted for anything over 10.5mm I scanned the MEC, REI, and Mountain Gear sites. The only Mtn Gr carried 11.mm ropes. (2 ) I remember once buying a 11.5 (7?) once years ago for a wall!

Silly! No it is a real place definately not really a Mecca but it does have a few very overhanging routes I hear are worth checking out on a rainy day.

Does anyone have good (as in specific) directions to that overhanging sport climbing Mecca known as Butler Bluff? Tried to find it Sunday but failed!

What's funny is the diversity. If people were to state the reasoning behind their choices it would be interesting. I agree with Mattp that most of the routes here are great but some I actually thought were mediocre. I once recomended a route to someone and when they saw me the next time they were convinced I mislead them on purpose. I didn't. Here is an add: Rutabaga 5.11a/.10d Squamish Reasoning: Climbing makes you think. Crack changes during the route. Crux move made with pro close by but not above you. Not just a simple grab and go crack. Nice stances to ponder the moves above.

That item is now off the site.

Funny I ordered three and the total came to $29.00 with shipping. I wonder what will happen.

Cheap Cam - No problem leaving one of these on a rap!

As single ropes! Damn! I screwed up two good posts!

Silly I mean NON-glacier, NON-low angle routes!

Ok I can't reduce this list to one but excluding exasperator: Penny Lane Squamish 5.8/9 Arrowroot Squamish 5.9 Thin Fingers Index 5.11a Godzilla 5.9 Index Sometimes A Great Notion Leavenworth 5.10c Apron Jam (Wild Traverse) Leavenworth 5.9 Blown Out Beacon Rock 5.10a

What rope size do ypu climb on fo rnon-glacier/low angle routes?

What does moderate mean?

Post deleted by Peter_Puget

In the gym I see many variations of knee raises. Typical varieties are: a - legs hanging straight and knees brought up and then legs straightened. b - Legs brought up with knees bent a somewhat constant angle. c - Hanging from arm straps. d - Hanging from a pullup bar. e - Hanging from arm rests. So my questions are: Why so many variations? Are some just plain wrong? Why not just do situps? PP Help I need more stars!

Hey Col. I was at Josh too! Well for a day. Maybe you saw some of my blood on Course & Buggy. Did Glory Road and Desert Song before we went over to Headstone Rock. What WA needs is a great 5.6 like Headstone rock - next time I will bring my lunch. PP