Peter_Puget

Wall's post got me a thinking about how often thin crack climbing apporaches face climbing. The perfect example would be Clean Crack at Squamish. Climbs like those at Indian Creek, which Wallstien calls "pure" crack climbs are the rare exception. For example climbs like Moratorium or Gold Rush in the Valley do not have typical "jam your feet in the crack" sections at their respective cruxes yet they are without doubt crack climbs. Many crack routes have cruxy sections of off balance laybacking(eg Back to the Future or almost all the cracks at Snowshed Wall at Donner Summit, Psychopath start to Iconoclast) These routes require a commitment and confidence in placing pro that sport routes do not have and which seems to require specific practice but alot of the technique used to climb them is typically associated with face routes. The diverse nature of crack routes of course begs the question: what is a face route? Face routes and sport routes seem to be used interchangably in this thread yet there is a world of difference between overhanging jug routes and a thin Meadows test piece. As the grades get harder I think Wallstien hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that lots of face climbing footwork (esp the lower angle routes) can be transferred to crack climbing. Thinking of a route at Smith that feels like a crack climb for me as far as far as footwork I came up with Latin Lover. So all this rambling leads me to conclude that RG2002 is right when he says it is all good.

From my own experience training for cracks is much more difficult than training for sport/face climbing. Mostly because there are so few opportunities to train for crack climbing. Last few years I have become irritated that my crack climbing sucks so much! I think Cavey once witnessed my dismal crack technique! In Seattle, I would recommend the training at the UW climbing rock. The cracks there are amazingly good for learning crack technique. Start by using everything then start eliminating rocks and finally the crack. Try to climb them with as many jams as possible. Down climb! Practice footwork. Even though it sometimes hurts like hell jamming your foot in a crack is essential to success. If you can't access the UW rock run laps as often as you can on route you can climb. At Index try top roping Iron Horse, Pressure Drop, Marginal Karma or Even Steven. At Smith I'd head to the Gorge. Minas Morgul is a fun TR too. Of course once the technique is down there still is the question of strategizing where and when to place pro. Nothing wrecks my psych faster than pulling the wrong size piece off my rack. I can't remember the last time I fell doing a crack move because I always seem to freak out placing a piece and hang. Since sport climbing contains very little strategizing about protection it seem to have a negative impact on my crack climbing. Getting the pro thing down is the hardest part of crack climbing. If you took ten Sporto climbers who flash 12b at Smith and 10 Trads who flash 5.12b crack in Yosemite and then asked the Sport climbers to climb Tales of Power(btw a climb with relatively straight forward protection) and the Trads to climb Watts Tots my guess would be that a higher percentage of Trads would succeed on WT than sport climbers on ToP.

Ah you guys look so second rate! Check this out! The pro-Syrian Lebanese daily Al-Saffeer(1) carried today an article by Abd Al-Hamid Fakhuri titled "Heil Bush – America Uber Alles."(2) The following are excerpts from the article: "Oh ruler of the planet Earth, like those who came before you, Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander [the Great], Nero, Genghis Khan, and Hitler, we, Ruler of the World, offer you our submission and our complete loyalty on our own behalf and on behalf of our peoples. On the occasion of your magnificent victory in the elections of your great country, as you have imposed your will, that cannot be denied, on the [u.N.] Security Council which passed the resolution [to send weapons inspectors] as preparation for your war on Iraq – which confirms your penetrating and long-range insight and the rightness of the principles by which you rule." "Heil Bush, America Uber Alles!" "We humbly acknowledge that you have represented truth, justice, democracy, freedom, equality, and humanism in their most glorious forms throughout the generations – the wars you were forced to wage in Korea, Vietnam, Africa, Yugoslavia, Iraq, and Afghanistan, and the coups you planned in various areas in the world, and the assassinations of some leaders of countries that were carried out only because they did not obey you and, despite their weakness, joined the axis of evil that was eliminated or will be eliminated in future." "Heil Bush, America Uber Alles!" "We wonder what we should call you: 'Emperor of the Universe,' 'Sultan of All Time,' 'Shah of All Generations'? All these titles are not seemly [enough] for you. By Allah, had the monotheistic religions not been revealed, we would have made you into a god, as the Pharaohs and Romans did [with their leaders]. You have never spoken without wisdom dripping from your lips; you have done nothing without the good of mankind guiding you. You killed millions only to save billions more from the evil that they represented. All anyone has to do is watch you speak to see the nobility and courage on your face and perceive your pure, far-seeing gaze towards [the horizon], and the radiant half-smile that heralds your sublime goals and your optimism in leading humanity towards the ideal in which you believe." "Heil Bush, America Uber Alles!" "Even though you still struggle with a small number of problems that distract you, even partially, from your blessed concern about the future of mankind – such as Iraq, Cuba, North Korea, and, we almost forgot [to mention], Palestine, where a group of its sons continues to disturb your rest with the strangest Intifada of its kind, heeding no reason preached by the masters of Arab wisdom – and there are many. We know with certainty that you will eradicate them all with the reason of the power of justice by which you rule." "Heil Bush, America Uber alles!" "We buy weapons from your factories to express our complete submission, to increase the profits of your companies, to create employment for your workers, and punish our people so that they will... fear rebelling against us, or against you. We entrust our natural resources to your hands, and then borrow money from the international banks that you control. We open up our markets to your goods, in the name of international free trade, at the expense of our farmers and laborers, and we enable you to change our culture and even to cause its demise, including controlling our thoughts and deleting [from our writings] whatever you see fit [to delete], and rewriting our history and changing our curriculum, even in religious affairs. All this [you do] so that we will assimilate into globalization or Americanization, which is, beyond a doubt, the height [of aspirations] in our modern world. Thus, we renew our vow of fealty to you; we bow our heads and raise our fists to you to say in a single powerful voice: 'Heil Bush, America Uber Alles.'" Endnotes: (1) Al-Saffeer (Lebanon), November 21, 2002. (2) The term, from the Nazi salute and the Nazi slogan "Deutschland Uber Alles," was translated by the author into Arabic.

Two headlines from today's Washington Post: "Gore: Bush Loses Terror Focus 2000 Rival Says Focus on Iraq Aided GOP but Not Nation" "U.S. Identifies Captured Al Qaeda Official Suspected Head of USS Cole Bombing Caught Earlier This Month" SOme guys just can't catch a break. Gore isn't the Dem's best hope and he won't run a serious campaign. PP

quote: Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing: quote:Originally posted by Peter Puget: DFA - You are way wrong on this ... INCONCEIVABLE! That was my first thought too! And if you do chat with beefchub and notice he types like me, it is only by chance!

DFA - You are way wrong on this probably because you have never chatted with Allison. She is the chat queen! Wish I was home and chatting away!

Thanks for the great replies!

Ok Stupid question it maybe but here goes... What exactly is a rest day? More to the point, lets say I have a hard climbing/workout day and am due for a rest day. Does running/bike riding at a moderate level negate the "rest"? Doe srest really mean nothing?

Ok I admit that my earlier posts on this thread were somewhat smart-alecky in nature but they also held a grain of truth and here is a more serious reply. Quote from Offwhite: "I think that if you want to be quintessential NW hardman, you have to think in terms of Alpine. Face it, the cragging here just doesn't rate in terms of the big picture. Would you drive 3000 miles to climb at Index? Me either. Don't get me wrong, I think there is good cragging here, but its not the major component of the vision of NW Climbing, If you're after recognition as a hard sport climber, you go elsewhere to make a name for yourself. Come to think of it, if you're after recognition as an alpine climber, you go elsewhere too. Its not as if Jim Donini made his name on the basis of his regional ascents. Perhaps the quintessential NW hardman is content with obscurity, hence the indifference to the nomenclature." Oddly in the 80's several of the nations most publicized "rockjocks" did jus that. Namely Hugh Herr flew in from the East Coast, Todd Skinner from Wyoming, Alan Watts drove up from Smith, Russ Clune form (I think at that point) Southern California. In the past a large part of the talent in WA rock climbing left the state for extended periods of time. Think of Dick Cilley, Steve Gerberding, Brooke Sandal or Pat Timson or more recently Mike Schaeffer for example. (for those Canadians we can even add Peter Croft to the mix) I have climbed at some point with all these guys (except Mike) and can say that they are all pretty damn hard. The at least showed me how soft I am. Many of those who remained in the State chose to do their hard climbing out of the state. For example of a local alpinist think of Steve Swensen. This is even true of imports from elsewhere - for example Donini or Grossman. In the Alpine scene many of the modern routes were first ascended during times of deep freezes. In the 80s there several years of settled cold weather. Even I was induced to go out on the ice and once almost convinces to try the Upper Wall Falls. Something I haven't seen really frozen in over a decade. After a very quick review of the CAG I believe that there is a definite correspondence between these cold spells and the first ascent s of these modern alpine routes. Many of those who I remember being really active in WA alpine new routing left the area. Some like Twight aspiring to fame claiming that the difficulties here are weak. Now by weak I mean not up to cutting edge alpinism based on a world view. So if is he isn't cutting edge difficulty or even ability does the NW hardman exist? I say yes. And his/her definig features are can be clearly defined. A NW hardman is an explorer, willing to follow his indiosyncratic notions (often times to the extreme) and is content and happy in doing so. Think back to Beckey, he was not on the cutting edge of climbing for long at all (if ever) yet his insatiable appetite for discovery and climbing has made him the FA king of the 20th century. More recently look at Pete Doorish's adventures in trying to find "big Walls" in WA. While others shook their heads in disbelief he pioneered such celebrated routes such as the Norwegian Buttress or Bear Mountain. I do not believe that these routes are anywhere near as hard as say the Jolly Roger route yet they are quintessential NW hardman routes. And quite amazing in their own right. I think their defining features are not so much in the quality of their climbing but in the quality of the FA. Now how does this relate to the thread in question? I would say that the NW hardman tick list cannot be comprised of existing routes. It can only be created by the individual as he/she follows his/her own bliss in a series of exploration and discovery.

Mattp - It seems at first that you are talking sense but a quick review of climbing history repeatedly shows that the "Rock Jocks" easily move into alpine territory and shred the existing scene. Long Live Rock!

Free your minds! The hardest climb is probably buried beneath the forest canopy. THIS is the modern World! [ 11-19-2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Dwayner's Secret Project

Yeow How can you guys remember all those details. I have climbed Godzilla a bunch but don't remember as much as you all. here is an idea for this mighty climb. A topo should be posted with as much detail as humanly possible the ULTIMATE supertopo for a one pitch route!

Isn't the crux on Godzilla the last move unless you are tall?

Trask has merely been out of the area organizing his own special brand of politcal action: A Bit risque but it is trask at work after all! PP

quote: Originally posted by Al Pine: Noone climbs that route because a) the bottom is a choice of bolted moss or grovel crack Dont remember the bolted start but the crack was fun. Harder and steeper than it looks too then a traverse to a belay. The next pitch is short corner with a steep part before the top. Finally a short slabby pitch. The variation in the guide isn't as good as what I have described here. c) the trail has been destroyed Nope just rerouted a bit. PP

Hey isn't Einstien's Relatives a great rout ename?

I don't think they kick but but on crowded days Godzilla can be a bit of a scene so I usually am up for something different. While the same can be said sometimes for GM, often there is no comparison. That route to the left of Rattletale is pretty good to although it's a bit harder. No one even seems to go there.

Ah J_B - Let me help you out here. Context. Context Context. I have merely asserted that the Israelis are better than their opposition. You have presented no argument against this. But you have posted a series of posts illustrating bad behavior by the Israelis. You have also accused them of War Crimes and Genocide. I also pointed out clear instances where some of the journalists working for some of organizations behind your links have made representations of facts that were clearly not true and I believe they have done so knowingly to further a political agenda. The quotes I posted are unequivocal and clearly at such odds with reality that calling such distortions out can only be considered a smear campaign in the world 1984. Didn't one Guardian editor once said something like: "Opinions are free the truth costs." As such my posts have helped to provide context for your links. I have repeatedly said that a mere listing of bad behavior was a waste of time. After all how can one judge what is being presented? Do the number of violations of proper behavior count or do they have to be weighted differently according to some cosmic scale? Does your reference to a village being destroyed in 1948 count less because it is old? It would be easy for me to go to many sites and post many links showing the opposite of what your links claim. Again it would be meaningless without a context and an argument to frame them. Now I clearly I have suggested that you have not been engaging in a honest discussion but rather have been using these threads as an opportunity to post items advocating your point of view. (think of a Sunday morning talk show where the politician guest says his prepared line regardless of the question) Here is an example form the first post on this thread:: You begin by quoting MtnGoat: MtnGoat: Israel: Constition, laws, rights, religous freedom. Palestinians and their islamic supporters: none of these You then respond: MtnGoat is poorly informed: http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/return.html http://academic.udayton.edu/race/06hrights/VictimGroups/Palestinans/palestinans02.htm in other words, it's not much different than what we did to the American Indians except times have changed and a little powder in the eye (barely) is needed to maintain appearances. When your links are read it is clear they are about the Israelis only. As such they do not address Mtngoats second claim regarding the Palestinians. The links lead to some writings by Uri Davis here are some important quotes from those links From the first link: In 1950 the Israeli Knesset passed two laws They(Arabs who left Israeli during the many wars) are excluded by law from actual or p~aential citizenship in the Jewish state Second link: Apartheid is an exceptional form of racial discrimination predicated upon the enforcement of racism in law through Acts of Parliament Certainly from these quotes it is obvious that you are not denying the Constitution and laws part of Mtngoat's claim. As far as I can see the references to rights in your links refer to those who are not considered Israeli citizens. As such you links do not say anything to Mtngoat's claim regarding rights. As far as religious freedom your links are basically silent. Thus I can only conclude you have not proved your case that Mtngoat is incorrect and the evidence you appeared to be providing was in reality nonexistent. Your first link also refers to a tragedy /massacre at Al-Duwayma (1948) Now if I was to point to the relocation of Japanese Americans as a refutation to someone's claim that in the US we have rights I would be called a buffoon. But I would also point out that the conquering battalion was in a state of war at the time as war imposed the nascent state of Israel by the Arabs. (pointing this out is called providing a context) again your reply was truly not truly a rejoinder to Mtngoat's claim but merely the opportunity to "smear" I have also pointed out some ridiculous analogies you made such as comparing American Indians and Westward expansion to the situation in Israel. Further I believe you are smart enough to know the analogy was flawed and used it merely to associate genocide with the Israelis. As I have said usage of such terminology is the result of a political agenda not a analytical one. I even added in some Palestinian references to show they were in on the word usage too. I find such a political campaign closer (as in identical) to a smear campaign than anything I have engaged in. I find it telling that you have never once answered any of my questions concerning Arab behavior. My sense is deep down you know the Israelis are much closer to conforming to the ideal enshrined in the UN declaration you have posted and for some reason refuse to admit it. PP

Chuck - I am by no means against all taxation. In general I am suspicious of sumptorory taxation, taxation designed to channel economic growth or reward certain behaviors. I have become very scared of 'user fees.' User fees are odd in that they appear so reasonable yet I believe ultimately have a terrible impact. Years ago I was very pro user fees but after too many conversations on the way to crags especially after the Forest Service Fee was set up I was convinced by an occasional poster here that they were most often in his words:"the embodiment of evil. What I find unfair about the death tax is that it penalizes those who save and rewards those who spend. It is truly double taxation. In my example a hard working guy gets screwed because he and his wife chose to save and invest their money in a house. Besides the patent unfairness of this I also think it causes distortions in behavior that are not to the country's benefit.

quote: Originally posted by Jim: But you're exempt if you have less than $2 million! It's only collected from 1.4% of tax payers, those that have quite a lot, and enough money to avoid as much tax as possible. The marginal tax rates are now at their lowest in 65 years. They have been declining steadily the past 10 years. While the upper (and I mean upper) class have been clicking their heels the middle (what's left of it) and the bottom tax brackets are losing ground. That doesn't seem fair to me. As a practical matter the 2 million exemption doesn't exist. What exactly do you mean by marginal tax rate lowest in years please me quite specific with your response. Inequalities that appear elsewhere in the tax code do not justify an unjust taxation elsewhere. My example was quite specific and quite possible. Remember my hero is not in what is usually consiodered a rich man's profession. I'll modify it a bit. The wife dies of breast cancer now and in ten years the husband dies. Are you suggesting that a wrong inflicted by our government on a small percentage of the population is ok? PP

I am concerned about properness of the tax in the first place. I am not an expert but all the methods I know to avoid the tax have down sides esp given that the tax is unfair in the first place. But a "perfect" tax code would not lend itself to encouraging wasted labor on avoidance and effectively act as subsidy to lawyers and CPAs PP

Here is a true example: A construction worker and his GF decide to live frugally and on one of there income. They do so get married and my the time they are in their late 20s have almost 300 in cash set aside. Now they buy a nice house in the late 80s i what has become a fshionable part of the eastside. So far this example is true of a WA climber. Now 10 years from now they die. Their estate will now be subject to an onerous estate tax. Simply because they chose to save their money the government now has the right to half of it after it had already been taxed. PP

It's ok Jim your quick reply saved me from posting some other links:)