Matt_Anderson

I've seen the person taht I think is the first ascencionist since the route was put up and after I formed my opinion on it. I didn't say a thing. I wish I had. matt

Yep, its Chuck's topic. Any body wanna reply?

new topic? I started one . . . http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001923 [ 03-27-2002: Message edited by: erik ]

quote: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Pope's response got me thinking about the "contrived" issue. I guess I was getting at this when I sent out the post about Lingerie. I was pretty sure the book rating only made sense if you kept yourself from using holds that are easily reachable. In one sense this seems foreign to climbing on real rock, and more like climbing in a gym, hence my taped holds comment.But...I got to thinking . Where do we draw the line? It seem obvious in some instances, like a problem at the UW rock with giant verboten hold that makes the problem much more difficult because you need to do some serious contortions to avoid touching it. What about the opposite side of the spectrum though? You [it]could[\it] say that every climb on Snow Creek Wall is "contrived" because you could much more easily walk up the back side. Is the Remorse start to Outer Space contrived because there's an easier way to get to Two Tree Ledge? Is Pony Keg at Vantage contrived if you resolve to not clip the bolts on Whipsaw? What makes something "contrived"? Does it matter? Not really, but it might be an interesting discussion. What do you think? New subject to prevent thread creep. For me, the proper rating of a roped climb is determined by the difficulty of the easiest path up that ascends the given area of rock without straying so far from the protection that the fall potential is increased to an unacceptable level. Of course, the danger of what an unnaceptable level varies with the climber. The whole point of rock climbing is taking the challenge that nature presents you and solving it by 1) making yourself stronger and 2) finding the easiest way. Contrived climbs ignore 2) in order to train for 1). For me, 2) is the most beautiful and rewarding part of climbing. Most contrived climbs are a result of: 1) Crowding to many routes into a given area of rock; or 2) The desire of someone to put up a difficult test-piece in spite of the fact that a particular area of rock is more suited to easier climbing. OVER CROWDING. As a general proposition, if you can easily traverse over to another line of bolts and get protection or get in the way of another climber, than you added a line where there shouldn't be one. Not every inch of a crag needs to be bolted. The new route to the left of Rainy Day Women and to the right of the big dihedral on World Wall I at Little Si is a prime example. Anybody climbing that route gets in the way of people on the adjacent routes. For at least half of the climb it is easier to climb the holds on the adjacent routes while simultaneously clipping the bolts on the middle climb. It’s an eyesore and the person that established it should take it down and repair the bolt holes as well as possible. If the person really wanted to sample the few independent moves on the route, it could have been top roped (and the moves aren't even that good anyway.). FIRST ASCENSCIONISTS IGNORING THE FLOW OF THE ROCK. A first ascensionist has a responsibility to those who follow to establish lines along natural paths. Bolting a 5.14 route, no matter how aesthetic the moves, and calling it 5.14 even though the rating requires you to refuse to touch the holds on a 5.10 four feet to the right is ridiculous. Doing so ruins the experience of those who follow the purer form of rock climbing and ascend the natural line of weakness. THE ALTERNATIVE: Routes that have appealing moves, but are so close as to not be considered truly independent should be left as topropes. Take the following hypothetical: If it is easier to go five feet to your right, climb up for 8 feet, and then rejoin the bolted line by traversing five feet to the left, than the proper rating for that climb is how hard it is with all of the f'd up traversing. I would even apply this rating if the above statement were true for every bolt on a fourteen-bolt pitch. Obviously, ascending a route in this manner is unaesthetic. The fault lies in the first ascencionist who ignored the natural flow of the rock. S/he should have bolted the easier moves to the right and installed top-rope anchors (if necessary) over the fun, but contrived moves to the left. Many people will say that’s ridiculous – you bolt the lines that are fun. I disagree. You bolt the lines that nature gives you. If they are anesthetic, then you are probably climbing at a crappy crag or a crag that is more suited to top-roping. Anything else reduces the outdoors to a climbing gym – the appropriate place to change holds in order to fit your idea of aesthetics. Re Lingerie at Vantage: (disclaimer: I haven’t seen these climbs, this is only based on the descriptions given in the “perplexed” thread.) If a person wishes to sample the harder climbing on lingerie at .11d, they may, of course, do so, but I would say that they climbed a 5.easier via 5.11d holds/moves, not an 5.11d. If lingerie is a bolted climb, then I think it should be a top-rope and the (presumably) easier “sex party” should be the way to set up the top-rope. As mentioned above, some crags will just naturally be more suited to a greater percentage of top-ropes. LETS CALL A SPADE A SPADE: I don’t have a guidebook in front of me, and I can’t recall specific examples, but it occurs to me that many of the climbs on the lower entablatures at Vantage are so close together that they would be considered contrived under the above definition. I think that is because people have so little respect for the rock at vantage that the damage caused by treating it like the plywood in a gym is less than the extra fun/ego boost they get from squeezing in another line. In some cases, that’s ok – for instance, the chipped quarry climbs in England. Its up to the local climbers in the area to determine if they think that their local crag is such a dung heap that they don’t mind bolting it to hell in order to satisfy there own short-term desire for a new route. matt

quote: converted shed, 1 room, small bathroom, no kitchen but you can share the kitchen inside the house but is there an internet connection?

quote: i have yet hear an arguement to wear another cam is better, maybe close to as good, but never better...... In the small sizes (smaller than the .5 camalot) the aliens are better. Here's why:1) same (or just about same) expansion size - check the numbers there really is no difference 2) flexible stem - camalot stems are to stiff and fat, especially for a pin scar placement, where the stiffer stem can provide unwanted leverage.3) narrower head - same issue - pin scars.4) qualitatively better placements - they just fit better in the thin stuff. In the big sizes, BD rocks, but are heavy. I can tell the difference when I have a rack full of BD and a rack full of something else. 2 cents.matt

I generally carry a double run of cams from as small as they get up to a #3 camalot. I agree that I don't carry less weight overall because of the camalots. (I own the .4 to the #2). I have them in these sizes because:1) they inspire confidence when placed2) thet fit a wide variety of placements, not only in quantitative terms (better-than-average expansion range), but also in an qualitative way; 3) their silky smoothe action;4) they have fantastic stability.Basically, they are a luxury item (if you call perfect placement every time a luxury - I do, interms of the cost of their weight). Of course, their cost also makes them a luxury item. My ideal rack would be a double run of aliens up to the size of hte .5 camalot and then a single run of camalots to #3 and a run of trangos up in the same sizes (cheap).

there's no reason that someone has to be better at one over the other, but . . . quote: I climb about 20 face routes a year That's the problem - People are good at what they practice (in your case: cracks) and usually practice what they prefer(cracks). Then they get better at what they prefer(cracks) and shittier at what they don't like(face). Then they enjoy the things they prefer(cracks) even more. It's a vicious circle. Put some time into the face climbing and it'll get better. Gym climbing, of course, is tailor-made to training for face climbing and doesn't take all that much time. If you want specific training advice, go to a class at a gym. As annoying as the gyms are to some people, the one thing most gyms know about is how to help people progress past 5.6 face . . . The good thing, is that, while it is often hard to motivate one's self to train one's weaknesses, its the quickest way to improve your climbing overall, i.e. it'll also likely pay big dividends to your crack climbing. matt

Re: Index - Only been on Swim - The Fifth pitch should not be done in the heat - horrendously frustrating. Otherwise, very nice, The Second and fourth pitches are really nice. Re: Baring - Two free routes that I know of on Dolomite tower (the tower furthest right as you're looking at the N face.) Regardless of what route you do, make sure that you wait until the snow melts out, even from the buttresses above the approach: Burdo says he saw a huge amount of ice scour part of the approach during an early season foray. Also, it appears that a significant amount of rockfall scoured the slab that is used to exit the primary approach gully. Nothing came down when we were up there (a little over two days), but an area a few hundred feet across on a 45 degree slab was littered with a substance similar to concrete. We also noticed some hangers taht were rather beaten up. I can only assume it was the result of a large rock fall, especially since Burdo says that slab had always been very clean when he was on it. One route goes at low twelve with a whole lot of sustained .11. Its called Vanishing point. Very nice. Is got about 14 pitches on the main buttress, but many of them can be joined with a 70 meter rope. Another, I believe, is called Northwest passage, is supposed to be less sustained, but has a crux .12c pitch. Reportedly, Doorish may be working on a third free route up there. Re: the main face on Baring - There was a trip report last summer by somebody with a rather detailed description of a route that Beckey put up on the face (I think??). You should be able to find it with a search all posts for baring. matt

Re: doubling up - If you already have .5 - 3.5 including the half sizes (1.5, 2.5, etc.) the expansion ranges on the camaots are good enough that you practically have doubled up on the 1 - 3.0 range. I'd add small cams. Somebody asked why everybody prefers tcus to aliens, there was a thread earlier that was very long, and I think that actually, most prefer aliens. I know I do. Also, if you check out hte expansion ranges, there's almost no difference between them and the camalots. Nonetheless, if you do want to double up in the larger sizes, go to a different (lighter and cheaper) maker I have one set of camalots and the others are trangos, which work great. I save the camalots for the end of the pitch when the rack is smaller and the extra expansion range is more helpful. Contrary to the caveman, I think the .5 and .75 camalots are some of my favorite cams in the world. They fit a crack size that's a bit hard to jam (for me - big hands), they get used on every route, their bomber, silky smoothe and have a great range.

I think Doorish also rope soloed a route on Dolomite tower on the North Face of Mt. Baring. Holy shit. matt

Despite flaws in his argument, a well written and amusing diatribe. (I like sarcasm) [ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: Matt Anderson ]

So Baccar used to save money on a harness by just tying the rope to his unit on certain climbs. Seems like a good idea. What do you guys think?

Supertopos.com has a "rode to the nose" product which describ3es how someone with a lot of time in the valley should do to feel ready for it. For stuff to do around here: The two most important things in order to get up big walls are:1) Desire2) efficiency. Desire First. If BOTH of you don't want it alot, one will get scared, stop working hard, perceive the wall as bigger and badder than it really is. This will doom the trip. Desire is what makes you work hard enough to be ready for it and sacrifice the other parts of your life in order to get ready for it. Getting a partner who is equally amped will allow you both to feed off each other and to push whoever may be feeling lame on a given day. Efficiency: Climbing walls is about humping loads and moderately difficult pitches all day long and avoiding clusterfucks. Its best to practice with the partner you will be climbing with, but even if you don't, you need to get comfortable with the systems. Get fast at changing over at belays and hauling. Do a lot of multipitch, a fair amount with a haul bag. I'm not particularly into hauling heavy bags for no reason, but a day or two on town crier or green dragon with a pig is definitely in order. Regarding specific little things: While cardio vascular shape helps, running is very different from what you will be doing on the wall. The best conditioning starts, with, as a baseline, committing to getting at least 10 pitches in every day you go out. If you can't do that with different pitces at first, TR the pitches you lead to "pad" your numbers as you work up to that endurance. Make sure a lot of those pitches are multipitch. A day with 10 pitches off the ground is far more restful and easy on the body than a day with 10 hanging belays. Index ratings are dead-on Yosemite ratings, and the climbing is very similar. Make Index your home. Much better than Leavenworth, which is far to low angle. Squamish is nice to, but, again a day smoking at the base of the low angle smoke bluffs is very different than a day hanging in belays at Yosemite. Davis Holland a couple of times in a day is a great conditioner, or link it up with the Godzilla trilogy or Centerfold. The grand wall is a pleasant way to spend preparing for these routes, as is Free way (see below re: french freeing if these are to stiff for your free climbing ability.) On walls, speed is safety and comfort. Decide early what "style" you want to emulate. You will have a much better time if you tell yourself that you will yard on gear any time it gets tuff. Very few people climb as well on a wall as they do off the ground or just a few pitches up at their home crag. If you are going to french Free, then practice doing it. While it ain't rocket science, you will get better and faster the more you do it. Set a pact with your partner to push each other to be fast. Don't accept sitting around looking at things. It becomes really enjoyable learning how much ground you can cover. Really concentrate on being fast at aid. Too many people hang out in the bottom of their aiders, as if that's a fun place to be. Yard up and place that next piece. Aid doesn't have to be slow. Go push yourself on intimidating routes for you and realize you can get up them, the mental fortitude will pay off when faced with 3400 feet of granite.

quote: Last year I did the Bone to Canary. To many details, Dru.

Awesome route, It goes clean, with micro nuts, hooks, cam hooks and a standard free climbing rack up to a #4 camalot. The second pitch corner is GREEEEAAAT (first time I used cam hooks). As I recall, one of the last pitches was the most challenging, I had to move in and out of my aiders, some of the placements on that pitch were interesting. Trip report when you get back, please! matt

Now Chocky, Don't go leading these people to believe you've done climbs that you haven't. (Athough ROTC is graded soft, it ain't that soft. And whatever! - Illusion Dweller rocks.

Yeah, what Rodchester said . . . I'm always looking for a way to reduce weight, I'm definitely not the most risk averse climber in the world, and I'm also a stron believer in reducing the possible number of possible failure points, but I don' girth hitch slings around nut wires. Wires are used to cut cheese and many other thihngs. It's basically a knife edge. Another argument for your partner is that as you start pushing your limts on leading, the increase in convenience (for both the leader and the follower) will be far offset by weight disadvantage. Keep asking questions, it mitigates the risk inherent in learning on your own.

Nominees for best .10b ever:- Split Pillar- 2nd Pitch of Davis Holand;- Illusion Dweller;- Crux pitch on the Casual Route on the Diamond ( a bit of overhanging jugs and stemming 1000 feet off the deck at 14,000 elev.)- (I'm not sure if its supposed to be .10a or .10b, but . . .) The second to the last pitch on the nose - Jam it or layback it, equally solid, chicken heads for feet, 1/2 mile of exposure. And the winner is . . . . The casual route pitch - good rock, good climbing, clean falls (if you gotta . . .) plus Position - Position - Position! Illusion dweller wold have to be second; The two corners mentioned above, lack the diversity of moves that I think (imho)are required to truly be the best. But . . . anybody been on Lotus Flower Tower? There might be something there . . .

Fiddler on the Roof is in black velvet canyon and is great. The potential to fall and have to prusik back to your last piece is there, though, so the other routes on that wall may be a bit less cheeky. They're all supposed to be great, I'm just the praising the only one I've been able to get on . . .

I go for super skinny ropes (9.4) for my climbing and abuse them a lot, so the radius issues turns me off of neutrinos for rope end. Also, my fingers are way fat (like most people's when they have gloves on), so clipping them would be horrendous. That said, I've got about 10 that I use on the bolt/gear end of my draws/slings. The rest of my biners are hotwires, which are still light enough, have a broad radius to be nice to the rope, and are way easy to clip. One of the more recent mags had a review of the wiregate superlight biners. As I recall, some of them have make the section of the biner that the rope will rest on wider, as if it is a wide radius biner. That would take care of at least one of my bitches.

quote: Has anyone done stuff at Bighorn Mating Grotto? What are you suggesting?

Ignoring single pitch climbs, the routes I have repeated the most are Davis Holland - Lovin Arms Finish (Index), the Grand Wall (Squamish), Zebra-Zion and the Pioneer Route or variations thereof(both at smith). Not quite alpine, but the ease of access combines with the quality of the route to make them big repeaters. D-H's big wall ambiance can't be beat for the price! Especially when you get to look down on the planes flying up the Skykomish Valley. Matt

quote: Stellar climb, but a pretty serious lead, in my view. I followed it in November, and recall that the crux move on pitch 1 comes about 20 feet above the first bolt, with a heinous pendulum and possible groundfall. The climb starts on a ledge and goes far right to the first bolt. The crux is getting past a dike system to the 2nd bolt on very thin holds. At this point, you've clipped a single bolt and traversed up and right about 20 feet over a precipice -- so the fall would be GRIM. I wouldn't disagree that figures is a tough lead, and its been like five years since I've been on it, but as I recall, the crux was just before clipping the anchors on the first pitch, with the lst bolt 15 feet to the right? Maybe its just because I was leading and not to happy about the thought of a pendulum. I recall a tough section down low on the climb, but as I recall, you can place gear in a seam/flake and that piece is around your feet or someithing reasonable like that. Are you sure that your leader didn't miss a piece? matt

Check back issues of Climbing or Rock and Ice (I think R&I) . . . There's an article on the classic .10s of Joshua Tree. It came out just before a trip I took and was fantastic. It also included a good list of sub.10s. Realize that J-tree ratings are stiff, even for old schoool trad places, and the monzonite often requires a mind expanding experience before you realize exactly how weel your shoes can stick to it. As I recall, Bird of Fire was nice, and could probably be TR'd, Solid Gold was nice (bolts, that one). One of hte best single pitch routes there is a right lieaning .10b that I forget the name of, As aI recall, a tough lead for the grade, but the pro is there. TR's would require directionals - It really well known and I think is in Real Hidden Valley - Can some one help me out, here? Finally, its probably stiffer and less protected than what you are looking for [There's a run out to the first bolt (i.e. its hard to see) and the the crux hits you when you're 10 - 15 feet directly left of your last bolt], but if you're feeling really good towards the end of the week, or if you have a rope gun, the end-=all be-all climb at J-tree (imho) is Figure's on a Landscape - It's is one of the finest climbs I have ever been on. Matt