Jman

BOLT 'EM! BOLT 'EM ALL TO DEATH!!! Clowns ruin the environment with all their make-up. They also cheapen my circus experience when all I want to see is animals of nature and freaks of nature.

How about McMenamins in Silver Lake? Good beer, good eats. How about Wed instead of Tues?

Yoss- "When you point your finger to blame someone, you still have three figures pointing back at you." That's cute. Did you learn that in the 3rd grade? "You have taken the topic of bolting and merged it with such issues as dumping toxic waste and the stupidity of corporate America." You have to admit they do share some similarities in 'environmental ethics', but probably more so in emotional fervor. "a group of people who you know very little about" Since when do you know exactly what I know or who I know? For all you know everything I've said could be made up. Ever hear of playing the Devil's advocate? "driving your SUV" Sorry, I'm not a SUV-driving yuppie. Good try though. "It seems you are not showing much respect for others by condemning activities which you happen not to participate in." Not sure what you mean here... if you're referring to climbing, I DO climb. If I said "I climbed Rainier" but don't *rock* climb, am I NOT considered a "climber"? Be careful about what you think I do or don't do. And I mean no disrespect to anybody and their forms of recreation. Nor am I "condemning" anyone. I just want to hear what your reasons are and why you feel the way you do and perhaps make comparisons to put things into scope - to put things in perspective, not just for you, but mostly for me (since I share the mountains, too). Besides, this is entertaining.

jb- Don't take me too seriously. I'm just having fun while trying to cause a little controversy. Also curious to know what others feel. So many here are strongly against bolting (so much that they become choppers) and very few seem inclined to support the ethics of it. [This message has been edited by Jman (edited 07-23-2001).]

you're funny.

bcd- Chill. These are only words intended to get you to think. Getting "pissed off" (as you say you are) kind of gets in the way of that (i.e. thinking clearly). I don't think my views are "extremist". It seems several others here share my views. "if the earth could be preserved in its natural state in areas of population concentration it would be a real tribute to the intelligence of our species." Yes, it would! And I firmly believe humans ARE intelligent enough to do this. Look at all of modern technology and what man has accomplished. Amazing yet stupid at the same time. Stupid is man's greed and inability to use it proplerly. "dreaming"? No. I try to have a realistic and balanced view of things - that would be the whole reason I put this suject out there. "...im getting away from poeple like you." You wouldn't be since I hang out in the mountains, too. You just won't find me *rock climbing*. But I understand your feelings, cause I share the same motivation for going into the mountains. Oh, and, reading posts here like mine certainly won't help you in that endeavor. "at least have some experience in the field your making judgements on" Do I need to be a greedy capitalist corporate monger of a industrial chemical plant to have a view on the right/wrongfullness of dumping toxic waste into Puget Sound? Do I need to be a snowmobiler to have an opinion as to whether or not they should be allowed on trails? Your "but-your-not-even-a-climber" attitude is exactly part of the problem. I'm not trying to find a negative. I'm trying to see if people understand the root of the problem. "climbers dont need you and your inexperienced point of view" That sounds rather extremist and rather selfish. I think you've illustrated my point very well. Let me correct you: Yes, you DO need non-climbers views as the land does not belong to just climbers (contrary to what you might believe). [incidentally, just because I said I don't "climb" (as in *rock* climb) doesn't mean I am inexperienced with regard to the mountains. Rock climbers are not gods - even they die when they make mistakes.] "go fight to save old growth, or caribou..." As I said in an earlier post, I'm not going to change the world and I have no intention of it. "as humans we CANNOT live without affecting our environment" That is true. But to what extent? Some things obviously are necessary. The question is: Are bolts necessary? [This message has been edited by Jman (edited 07-23-2001).]

Me- You're getting my point exactly. Well said.

Yoss- "we did leave tons of shit on the moon." Typical of Americans. "Why should you care?" Do you care that we (human) cut down thousands of acres of rainforest each day? dump tons of toxic waste into the sea each day? kill thousands of endangered species each day? Though you will probably never visit one of the rainforests, or swim in a polluted sea, or see an endangered animal, I'm sure it pains you to KNOW OF THESE and to know that humanns DO THESE THINGS with little or no regard for others. Do you care about all the trash left behind at Everest's base camp? Does that empty can of spam sitting half-buried at a remote campsite bother you? The environmental impact of both is as you say "virtually nil" so "why should you care"? That's the lamest bunch of selfish crap I've heard. I'm not going to change the world and I have no intention of it. Nor will I bolt any routes or chop any routes. Some activists triumph a worthy cause, but consider where the original problem stems from: selfishness, greed, disrespect. "If you want to live a no-impact lifestyle, that's fine, but that doesn't mean I have too." I'm not saying that you have do - I don't. Shoot, I drive a car, too. But ask consider your own actions and how they will impact others. "I drive a car, landscape my yard, and clip bolts, so what?" Yes, fine. I'm not advocating not to clip bolts. But do you drill?...

Offwidth- "ever use slings to rap off?" Nope. "this whole conversation is still lame. it's been hashed out here over and over." Just wanted stir some fires for a boring Monday morning. It's been 'hashed' simply as an issue of "bolting-makes-it-safer/easier" vs. "bolting-damages-the-rock". My angle is to see others' ideas of why they feel they have the right to do it. "...isn't going to change a thing." Perhaps not. But just maybe somebody might think about not simply why they're doing it, but what 'authority' do they have to do it. Is graffiti wrong if I want to express my artistic ablility? (hint: not if it's on MY property... but then it's no longer graffiti by definition). Hence, bolt all you want if it's on your private property. If it's on public property...

LOL. Dru, I just about had frappuccino come out my nose when I read that... (sorry, no insensitivity toward the topic discussed...) [This message has been edited by Jman (edited 07-23-2001).]

Dru- "because no clean option exists for protection and the consequences of falling are either a groundfall, or ledge fall." Well, then, don't climb it. What gives you the right to deface everyone's rock for *your* purposes? Offwidth- "so, are fixed belay or rap anchors okay?" No, they are no different. "hell, fixed pins leave scars too." I know, and I don't agree with those either. "i hope you've never used pin or bolt anchors before..." I'm proud to say that I haven't. OS- "A bolt every 6 feet or so on the steep spots would make it much safer too." Read my original post. If you want safer, why not install a ladder? Yoss- "Without bolts and pins, Most of the world's climbs would not have been climbed or would see only a handful of repeats." So what? If you didn't climb them what do care whether or not they were climbed? "Bolts are (in a perfect world) placed to ascend or protect sections of rock where clean protection is unavailable." I understand the purpose of bolt just fine. I also understand the purpose of stairs. "One of the most inspiring qualities of humans is our ability to adapt to harsh environments through skill and ingenuity." You mean our ability to conquer and hence destroy our environment? Humans ought to try LIVING WITH the environment the way that it is. It takes no great skill nor ingenuity to drill a hole and plug it with a bolt. "This way you could climb in a fashion that suites your style." Then I could equally recommend that those who like to use bolts climb only in a gym so as to suite your style of 'safety' and leave the rock in it's pristine condition. Again the question: What gives someone the right to bolt rock?

Most people step *OFF* the trail to do that. I frequently hike with my wife and my friend with his wife. If they need to go, they go out of sight. There's plent of space out there in the woods that one need not pee on the trail. They were rude and the road block was pointless and unnecessary.

So why does anyone in this world think they have a right to drill permanant holes into rock and install bolts? Is there any difference between this and chipping holds? or chipping away holds like the guy in Fontainebleau? or spray painting the rock with the date of FA and the route name? maybe chipping your initials into the wall if you're the first to ascend it? could we paint arrows indicating the route's direction and holds? If bolts make it "safer" (read: easier and more convient) to climb, skip the bolts and drill holes to hang a ladder. Heck, a staircase would be safer yet. If you really want safe, try staying on the trail. Why DOES someone bolt rock?! (to "establish a sport route" is not an answer) If you can't climb it without defacing, damaging, altering, adulterating, or otherwise vandalizing the rock, then you weren't meant to climb it! Have some respect for this earth.

I think the choppers command some respect for their bold actions of restoring something to it's natural state (or as close as possible to it). I'm sure everyone would appreciate it if they saw someone pick up litter on the trail or wash paint off a rock from a graffiti "artist". Our natural resources need to be TREATED WITH RESPECT, NOT CONQUERED. Here we are talking about permanent damage that they tried to repair. Is this not honorable? Should they not take pride in what they did? Not that bragging is in order, but so far I haven't gotten that impression from any of their posts. And their courage to stand up and take credit for what they did (while revealing their identities too) I think takes more guts than any route that you could climb. It sound as though the bolters have been made aware of this discussion but have not gotten involved, nor given valid reasons for their actions (I don't believe there are any besides), nor even revealed who they are. What gives with the secrecy? Afraid to own up to it? - then you shouldn't have done it.

I've heard of a guy who ate an entire salami and brick of cheese one night and then tested his fat percentage using the electric impedence method. He said according to that he had lost like 10 lbs of fat! (it was because of the high sodium content of the salami improved electrical conductivity). A much more accurate method of measuring body fat is the simple skin fold calipers (by someone who is skilled in using them). And you can buy a pair for about $15-20.

Was this the incident? http://www.bouldernews.com/news/local/18ldead.html

If the person to chop the bolts has to be accomplished enough to do so while on lead, is this because the person who installed the bolts also did so on lead?

Just got 'em, haven't had a need for 'em yet - probably will later in the season. Stubai's binding system is rock-solid. From what you said you will use them for, definitely get them - an excellent choice. You could use them for climbing any of the major peaks here in WA.

What I really want to know is... just who is danielpatricksmith? What's his real name?

Try sending an email to this guy since he had one for sale: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000128.html

Ray's ideas (along with many others) helped me to reduce my pack weight a great deal and I'm very thankful for this. But when he starts talking about cutting off labels - c'mon. Ray got pretty fanatical about those "metal label" put on shoes/boots - I'm sure he means the Gore-Tex ones. There comes a point where these fractions of ounces don't add up to crap! Read the prior thread about ways to cut pack weight... Yossarian had it when he said, "Remove all body hair, clip all nails, see a doctor about having tonsiles and appendix removed, relieve yourself frequently..." I believe if you spit once, you will ultimately weigh altogether less than if you cut off a label. And Pope's idea is even better, "Try taking a crap and a leak BEFORE you start the approach..." I mean, think about how much that weighs... All in all, great concept - but (as with anything) can be taken to fanatical extremes. Ray has built a religion out of it. But, hey, whatever floats your boat.

Is there any reason why this has to be on TUES night? Why not Monday or Wed?

oo... tempting... but, nah - better not. Last time specialed used it jon deleted it.

'Cause that's already been done here. And besides... you know where they put thermometers, right? This could be more interesting... Temperatures are rising... BATTLE CAAAAAGE!!!!!

tt- I don't know where you hike, but I can't ever remember temps over 100 F in the mountains. Even in the Cascades this time of year, temps average from around freezing (at night) to maybe 60's or 70's (on an exceptionally hot day). EV said he was heading north, probably to Canada where someone once explained this to him. Typically it gets colder the further north you go. And depending on his ultimate elevation, perhaps even colder. I sincerely doubt that higher temps will be of concern to him. Hence 32 is more accurate for you bickering fellows. EV - let us all know how it turns out and which is more accurate and easier to remember: 30 or 32 (which is not so coincidentally the temperature water freezes at and hence what the entire temperature rating systems, both C and F, are built upon).