Jman

Dru- I'm not sure if the seriousness of your apology has been lost on this thread or not. The puking smilies are pretty cool, though.

Now I want you kids to think seriously about using these emoticons. I came across this... enjoy: "Here are just a few reasons why they should be banned: *They reflect the moral vision of your fourth grade teacher. Smileys belong on spelling tests, math homework and essays about your summer vacation -- not on informed communication between adults. *They consume disk space. Not much, perhaps. But at a time when many users are falling back on compression software because of dwindling disk reserves, smileys have become the cellulite of network back ends. *They contribute to computer injuries. Typing extra colons, hyphens and commas can spead the road to RSI - repetitive strain injury. *They're heavy-handed. Attaching a smiley to something that's funny is like elbowing someone after telling them a joke and saying, ``Get it?'' *They're dysfunctional. Attaching a smiley to something that isn't funny doesn't make it so. *Smileys can be confusing. There are literally hundreds of them, so many that entire dictionaries have sprung up. Many must be explained every time they're used - tell me what @8-I means, for instance - defeating the very point of their existence. *They're unnecessary in most cases. The primary reason smileys didn't exist for so long is that good writers did not need them. A cleverly constructed sentence, finely wrought witticism or deft turn of phrase needs nothing to clarify or punctuate. It's a thing of beauty. Good writing needs smileys like the Mona Lisa needed lipstick and eye shadow."

I think you wanted this:

Will- Nice rebuttal to lambone's challenges. Sometimes we think we see a picture, but often don't know all the facts behind it. Good to see someone putting some deeper thought into their posts (no offense lam' - you're totally entitled to question).

Yeah, I just saw it... and, well, you came to mind. Oh, you mean the beer guy. I just found your earlier post. Shoot! I though I was being original. But you know what's best about him? He never stops drinking. Just beer after beer after beer... [This message has been edited by Jman (edited 07-25-2001).]

Have fun, wish I could come...

Thanks, those are great. Now we'll probably see them all over this board... [This message has been edited by Jman (edited 07-25-2001).]

Dru- Where do you get those cool animated things?!

nolanr- That's funny, my wife went skinny dippin' in Spectacle Lk, too (last Sept). She didn't seem to care if someone saw her, since it wouldn't be anybody she would ever see again. And if she ever has to pee on the trail (when there's no other place to go, like on switchbacks) she asks me to stand guard *only* to tell her if someone is coming (just like Drederek). The thought never even crossed our minds to make someone stop on the trail and wait. Who are we to tell someone else when they can and can't walk on the trail? [This message has been edited by Jman (edited 07-24-2001).]

Me- "Is building a hiking trail in the wilderness taking something away from nature and permanently damaging it?" I've given thought to that, too. Remember, trails are used by more than just humans. I would venture to say some of the modern trails were in existence long before white man - goats, deer, elk, etc. all trample out small paths and I'm sure some of these became the 'path' we travel today. In addition, a trail is not a permanent defacement of the land - trails do eventually 'grow' back if not maintained. Holes in rock on the other hand do not. "But we would not like to see a whole grid of trails through a forest?" I agree. Again, the key word is respect. In order to live on this planet some amount of 'irreversible' change is necessary. But consider how it will impact future generations - is the change to suit my selfish pursuits at the present? Or, would it be better left alone? Ask: How am I showing respect for others and respect for the land/property of someone else?

Yoss- "I didn't land on the moon either, but it's still good to know we made it." I don't really care that man landed on the moon. It's simply a 'look-what-we-did-and-we-did-it-first" accomplishment. Really, of what practical use is it to you personally that someone has walked on the moon? "If your not going to climb El Cap, what do you care if there are some pins under the Great Roof?" How would you feel if the Americans (or, Russians) left metal junk on the moon after they had achieved their 'quest'? - you're never going there, right? "Use chalk, ever left a jammed nut, or pulled off a handhold?" No. You probably could (but haven't) figured from my comments that I don't climb. However, that makes me no less entitled to my views of how public land should be used (not abused). In fact, I might represent an even greater majority - the non-climbing community - as opposed to the relative minority of climbers, and the fewer yet who believe they have a right to bolt. Lesson: consider all opinions on public land, not just those of climbers. Dwayner- "This "regurgitation" IS changing things." Thanks for pointing this out. I have been considering branching out into climbing and originally thought it no big deal to just buy some quickdraws to climb 'sport' routes. However, due to this site ALONE my view have been drastically changed. I no longer feel it is ok to permanantly impact even stupid rocks. And you're right about slings, they can easily be removed without any impact (that I know of).

BOLT 'EM! BOLT 'EM ALL TO DEATH!!! Clowns ruin the environment with all their make-up. They also cheapen my circus experience when all I want to see is animals of nature and freaks of nature.

How about McMenamins in Silver Lake? Good beer, good eats. How about Wed instead of Tues?

Yoss- "When you point your finger to blame someone, you still have three figures pointing back at you." That's cute. Did you learn that in the 3rd grade? "You have taken the topic of bolting and merged it with such issues as dumping toxic waste and the stupidity of corporate America." You have to admit they do share some similarities in 'environmental ethics', but probably more so in emotional fervor. "a group of people who you know very little about" Since when do you know exactly what I know or who I know? For all you know everything I've said could be made up. Ever hear of playing the Devil's advocate? "driving your SUV" Sorry, I'm not a SUV-driving yuppie. Good try though. "It seems you are not showing much respect for others by condemning activities which you happen not to participate in." Not sure what you mean here... if you're referring to climbing, I DO climb. If I said "I climbed Rainier" but don't *rock* climb, am I NOT considered a "climber"? Be careful about what you think I do or don't do. And I mean no disrespect to anybody and their forms of recreation. Nor am I "condemning" anyone. I just want to hear what your reasons are and why you feel the way you do and perhaps make comparisons to put things into scope - to put things in perspective, not just for you, but mostly for me (since I share the mountains, too). Besides, this is entertaining.

jb- Don't take me too seriously. I'm just having fun while trying to cause a little controversy. Also curious to know what others feel. So many here are strongly against bolting (so much that they become choppers) and very few seem inclined to support the ethics of it. [This message has been edited by Jman (edited 07-23-2001).]

you're funny.

bcd- Chill. These are only words intended to get you to think. Getting "pissed off" (as you say you are) kind of gets in the way of that (i.e. thinking clearly). I don't think my views are "extremist". It seems several others here share my views. "if the earth could be preserved in its natural state in areas of population concentration it would be a real tribute to the intelligence of our species." Yes, it would! And I firmly believe humans ARE intelligent enough to do this. Look at all of modern technology and what man has accomplished. Amazing yet stupid at the same time. Stupid is man's greed and inability to use it proplerly. "dreaming"? No. I try to have a realistic and balanced view of things - that would be the whole reason I put this suject out there. "...im getting away from poeple like you." You wouldn't be since I hang out in the mountains, too. You just won't find me *rock climbing*. But I understand your feelings, cause I share the same motivation for going into the mountains. Oh, and, reading posts here like mine certainly won't help you in that endeavor. "at least have some experience in the field your making judgements on" Do I need to be a greedy capitalist corporate monger of a industrial chemical plant to have a view on the right/wrongfullness of dumping toxic waste into Puget Sound? Do I need to be a snowmobiler to have an opinion as to whether or not they should be allowed on trails? Your "but-your-not-even-a-climber" attitude is exactly part of the problem. I'm not trying to find a negative. I'm trying to see if people understand the root of the problem. "climbers dont need you and your inexperienced point of view" That sounds rather extremist and rather selfish. I think you've illustrated my point very well. Let me correct you: Yes, you DO need non-climbers views as the land does not belong to just climbers (contrary to what you might believe). [incidentally, just because I said I don't "climb" (as in *rock* climb) doesn't mean I am inexperienced with regard to the mountains. Rock climbers are not gods - even they die when they make mistakes.] "go fight to save old growth, or caribou..." As I said in an earlier post, I'm not going to change the world and I have no intention of it. "as humans we CANNOT live without affecting our environment" That is true. But to what extent? Some things obviously are necessary. The question is: Are bolts necessary? [This message has been edited by Jman (edited 07-23-2001).]

Me- You're getting my point exactly. Well said.

Yoss- "we did leave tons of shit on the moon." Typical of Americans. "Why should you care?" Do you care that we (human) cut down thousands of acres of rainforest each day? dump tons of toxic waste into the sea each day? kill thousands of endangered species each day? Though you will probably never visit one of the rainforests, or swim in a polluted sea, or see an endangered animal, I'm sure it pains you to KNOW OF THESE and to know that humanns DO THESE THINGS with little or no regard for others. Do you care about all the trash left behind at Everest's base camp? Does that empty can of spam sitting half-buried at a remote campsite bother you? The environmental impact of both is as you say "virtually nil" so "why should you care"? That's the lamest bunch of selfish crap I've heard. I'm not going to change the world and I have no intention of it. Nor will I bolt any routes or chop any routes. Some activists triumph a worthy cause, but consider where the original problem stems from: selfishness, greed, disrespect. "If you want to live a no-impact lifestyle, that's fine, but that doesn't mean I have too." I'm not saying that you have do - I don't. Shoot, I drive a car, too. But ask consider your own actions and how they will impact others. "I drive a car, landscape my yard, and clip bolts, so what?" Yes, fine. I'm not advocating not to clip bolts. But do you drill?...

Offwidth- "ever use slings to rap off?" Nope. "this whole conversation is still lame. it's been hashed out here over and over." Just wanted stir some fires for a boring Monday morning. It's been 'hashed' simply as an issue of "bolting-makes-it-safer/easier" vs. "bolting-damages-the-rock". My angle is to see others' ideas of why they feel they have the right to do it. "...isn't going to change a thing." Perhaps not. But just maybe somebody might think about not simply why they're doing it, but what 'authority' do they have to do it. Is graffiti wrong if I want to express my artistic ablility? (hint: not if it's on MY property... but then it's no longer graffiti by definition). Hence, bolt all you want if it's on your private property. If it's on public property...

LOL. Dru, I just about had frappuccino come out my nose when I read that... (sorry, no insensitivity toward the topic discussed...) [This message has been edited by Jman (edited 07-23-2001).]

Dru- "because no clean option exists for protection and the consequences of falling are either a groundfall, or ledge fall." Well, then, don't climb it. What gives you the right to deface everyone's rock for *your* purposes? Offwidth- "so, are fixed belay or rap anchors okay?" No, they are no different. "hell, fixed pins leave scars too." I know, and I don't agree with those either. "i hope you've never used pin or bolt anchors before..." I'm proud to say that I haven't. OS- "A bolt every 6 feet or so on the steep spots would make it much safer too." Read my original post. If you want safer, why not install a ladder? Yoss- "Without bolts and pins, Most of the world's climbs would not have been climbed or would see only a handful of repeats." So what? If you didn't climb them what do care whether or not they were climbed? "Bolts are (in a perfect world) placed to ascend or protect sections of rock where clean protection is unavailable." I understand the purpose of bolt just fine. I also understand the purpose of stairs. "One of the most inspiring qualities of humans is our ability to adapt to harsh environments through skill and ingenuity." You mean our ability to conquer and hence destroy our environment? Humans ought to try LIVING WITH the environment the way that it is. It takes no great skill nor ingenuity to drill a hole and plug it with a bolt. "This way you could climb in a fashion that suites your style." Then I could equally recommend that those who like to use bolts climb only in a gym so as to suite your style of 'safety' and leave the rock in it's pristine condition. Again the question: What gives someone the right to bolt rock?

Most people step *OFF* the trail to do that. I frequently hike with my wife and my friend with his wife. If they need to go, they go out of sight. There's plent of space out there in the woods that one need not pee on the trail. They were rude and the road block was pointless and unnecessary.

So why does anyone in this world think they have a right to drill permanant holes into rock and install bolts? Is there any difference between this and chipping holds? or chipping away holds like the guy in Fontainebleau? or spray painting the rock with the date of FA and the route name? maybe chipping your initials into the wall if you're the first to ascend it? could we paint arrows indicating the route's direction and holds? If bolts make it "safer" (read: easier and more convient) to climb, skip the bolts and drill holes to hang a ladder. Heck, a staircase would be safer yet. If you really want safe, try staying on the trail. Why DOES someone bolt rock?! (to "establish a sport route" is not an answer) If you can't climb it without defacing, damaging, altering, adulterating, or otherwise vandalizing the rock, then you weren't meant to climb it! Have some respect for this earth.

I think the choppers command some respect for their bold actions of restoring something to it's natural state (or as close as possible to it). I'm sure everyone would appreciate it if they saw someone pick up litter on the trail or wash paint off a rock from a graffiti "artist". Our natural resources need to be TREATED WITH RESPECT, NOT CONQUERED. Here we are talking about permanent damage that they tried to repair. Is this not honorable? Should they not take pride in what they did? Not that bragging is in order, but so far I haven't gotten that impression from any of their posts. And their courage to stand up and take credit for what they did (while revealing their identities too) I think takes more guts than any route that you could climb. It sound as though the bolters have been made aware of this discussion but have not gotten involved, nor given valid reasons for their actions (I don't believe there are any besides), nor even revealed who they are. What gives with the secrecy? Afraid to own up to it? - then you shouldn't have done it.