mattp

I was killed in a climbing accident in 1979, came back as a grasshopper, got munched in somebody's lawnboy, and reincarnated as you. ohm manni padre ohm.

Ray - Hold on here. I'm actually pretty much on your side -- I've said that the rotation would place us on the east side and that if it were up to me we would go to the east side tomorrow night. But I did talk with Alpine K about how the east side participation has been low, and I agree with he and others who may feel that unless that situation changes we might not go there again as soon as we would to Tacoma. If you look back at all similar discussions, you will see that I have never -- not once -- argued that the pub club should be held in my neighborhood. The only time I have taken a stand in any of these arguments is when somebody has said "fuck you guy's, I'm going here with my friends no matter where you go." For tomorrow, I'll wait and see where it looks like the "real" event is to be held. Real beer drinking is just too important to miss out by going to the unreal event. Matt

Ray - I DID NOT suggest denying you your rightful pub club THIS week because we did have an established rotation that would have placed us over there tomorrow night. Also, I gave you credit where credit is due -- you regularly show up at pub club, and you have been willing to drive to Seattle or Tacoma on a Tuesday night. Your efforts in this regard have truly brought you great status as one of the superstars of pub club. What I DID say was that Eastside does not in my mind have enough participation to justify holding the event there as often as Tacoma. You don't care what I think, but here it is: rally the troops and get stronger east side participation and you won't have a problem when you suggest we go drink beer in your neighborhood. Too bad you don't want to go to the Pickets. Matt

I thought you were headed for the BIG STONE.

Ray - Yes, it was "your turn" and Alpine K has suggested a move to a Seattle location. But consider his point that, at every Eastside pub club there has ever been, the Seattlelites outnumbered the eastsiders. The Tacoma alcoholics show up consistently, and thus we Seattle boozers drive willingly drive down there to drink with them. I don't think Alpine K or anybody else has ever suggested THEY don't deserve it. But you guys over there in the 'burbs, well, you just haven't been carrying your weight. So I agree with Alpine K that you just don't deserve to be in the rotation as often as Tacoma. If it IS held on the eastside this week, and if you don't get a good showing, I would strongly vote against another eastside event for a couple of months. You do a pretty good job whenever we are out drinking, but try as you might, you just can't make up for your wimpy tee-totalling east side stay-at-home breathren. -Matt

White and Will: I agree with you about Scott Silver and Wild Wildness. But if you don't like some of what Wild Wilderness stands for, you can still use their information and support their position on the fee demo program while clearly distancing yourself from the organization. When I recently spoke with some higher-ups in the Mount Baker National Forest about Fee Demo, one of them said "where are you getting your info -- Wild Wilderness?" I replied that yes, I got some of my information from there, but I said that I had a mind of my own and didn't believe everything I read, whether from Wild Wilderness or from the Forest Service, and I asked about a report from OMB. In the ensuing discussion, I was careful to make my own arguments, in my own words, so I wouldn't sound like I was simply parroting Scott Silver.

quote: Originally posted by erden: I will be in the Valley May 14-22. A bit early in the season - it will be cool and the weather iffy at times In my opinion, May is THE time to be there. Yes, the weather is not as stable as later in the year, but it sure is beautiful to have the waterfalls in full force and flowers blooming in the valley, and the days are much longer than the nights. Having said that, I did get snowed off Halfdome Direct a number of years ago... Have fun and say hello to Mike Shaeffer. [ 05-06-2002, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: mattp ]

Lambone, I'm crushed that you didn't like my letter. Maybe you think we should all get together and put the clamps on the Seattle and Tacoma police, but I don't think that civil rights is really the focus of this bulletin board (this is cascadeclimbers.com, not civilrights.com)and that particular ranger is targetting climbers for harassment. You are correct that those who oppose fee demo have in some cases taken a dislike to "the man" before he even has a chance to be a jerk, but here i believe it is the other way around: it appears that Officer Inthout has an "issue" with climbers and he likes to intimidate people and uses the fee demo as an excuse to do so.

JJ- I wouldn't sweat about the sun on the White Salmon Glacier. I've done both routes at this time of the year and that was not a problem as the glacier faces north or northwest. Sun on the summit pinnacle can be an issue, however. If there has been any precip in the prior several days, the summit will be rime encrusted and it will start shedding its load by late morning on a sunny day. Matt

Yo Larry - We're planning a party in that parking lot of yours. Wanna come?

"Creep cracks" and moats are often call crevasses and bergschrunds. Many knowledgeable climbers use these terms incorrectly.

Oplopanax horridum gets a bad rap. Closely related to ginseng (which is in the panax genus), it was considered one of if not the most powerful healing herb by Northwest natives.

For general mountaineering, I carry a 65-70 cm axe. If you are going to concentrate on glacier travel and shy away from steep snow and ice, you might want a 75-80 cm axe.

Larry is beyond description. But I doubt he was enforcing a snow-park permit because I believe those are regulated by the State, not the Feds.

I think we need both parties' consent in Washington, but I don't advocate trying to get clever or legalistic or anything else and I think trying to record Mr. Inthout would be more provacative than productive. Larry quickly got testy when asked why he was pursuing a particular line of questions, and I am sure breaking out a tape recorder is only going to make a bad thing worse. If you think he is violating your civil rights, you are probably going to have to stand there and take it from him in the parking lot but you certainly are well within your rights to complain about it later. I sent my letters to the Leavenworth ranger and to Larry's supervisor in Wenatchee, and of course their response to me was generally rather defensive. But if they receive a lot of complaints, and if those complaints are expressed in a manner that doesn't sound like somebody just hates the forest service or cops, they may begin to fear that they could face a civil rights lawsuit.

The north side of Shuksan Arm, from the White Salmon Glacier over to the ski area, produces some of the largest avalanches I've ever seen. I am sure they debris pile right now is at least a half mile wide and taller than a sport crag. But these catestrophic avalanches generally occur when warm wet weather stresses the snowpack and outside these periods, I have not thought the White Salmon was more dangerous than any other north facing mountainside in the area (though don't hang out under the hanging glacier because it calves off ice avalanches once in a while). At this time of the year, the biggest problem I've had with the White Salmon is that there is a several week period in which the snow goes "isothermal" and you're likely to be up to your neck in the stuff -- even in the morning. If so, the Sulfide might be an easier option even if it involved a few miles of road hiking. The Fischer Chimneys route travels on so many different aspects that it might not be a good choice if you are worried about avalanche danger, but in cold weather it would probably be OK.

I just got off the phone with the Leavenworth district ranger, Glen Hoffman. I repeated the conversation that I had with Officer Larry's supervisor yesterday, and I added that I thought the way in which Larry Inthout conducted himself made many of us so uncomfortable that someone who would not otherwise lie to an officer might lie about who they were or where they were going. I suggested that this amounts to entrapment.

Engine House # 9 is at 611 North Pine. Ask a local, but I would guess it is easier to drive around via hiway 16 unless you know Tacoma (though I successfully followed the direct variation last time we were there). Here's the topo: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?zoom=6&mapdata=xU4YXdELrnBMEWv5zwDIAHdMzuAgfv%2bcK2EHbWa9eb8112fy0Nm%2bfVkCMTdN83qaa1Cn7oSWpDeYA5OqUrGwWNIOoU0oXcKN8%2fBAvJgM6spiHcoz5asnJ xWTdnfYK7he8Lt3ooeH2JYPoEDoOIrTKtGrwYEXagFfTa3j6EqdDuiyrNxDU8ciu%2bT3D5yvymlDCq%2fLci6PJ6JrUoXe7T4xqbhL3TvBhlLFljzRZtROlkZXRWPr3jLfqY65NVmwjkkiPF1uZZ4AsWTG4ZuV2jbWAXQZ%2f9PsHZVz5YH ch8DQWi245TT39Eo97smPVaWmfC5s%2f1SSXoafVKpPKCn%2bhMMryHArNlEFLtBscLevedo6x9U%3d OK, so I tried but I can't get the URL to work. Unless the good fairy helps out, you'll have to go to mapquest or yahoo maps and do it yourself. No photo, but here's a guidebook reference: http://www.nwbrewpage.com/wabpubs/Engine9.html [ 04-30-2002, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: mattp ]

Maybe we should have pub club in the Snow Creek parking lot.

He said that they had been a problem in the past but indicated no current problem. I made it clear, and although he of course couldn't acknowledge this, I am sure he knows that a group of climbers who hang out in the parking lot in full daylight with a ranger in the vicinity are not breaking into cars.

I doubt that Larry is going to receive a formal reprimand or anything, but I tried very hard to convey the message that I am not a crook, do not look like one (what do crooks look like, anyway), and that I understand that Larry has a hard job but that I didn't appreciate being treated like a crook. I was polite and tried to sound reasonable, so that any B.S. that Larry is telling him will be discounted.

In addition to writing that letter, I called Officer Inthout's supervisor this morning. Before he called me back, he asked Larry about it, and in defense of Larry he tried to repeat that B.S. about how we looked suspicious because we were hanging around the parking lot and normal people do not hang around in parking lots. Without calling him a liar, I told him that I have been "hanging around" in parking lots including that one for 30 years, and I explained that it is a big part of the climbers' social scene in addition to being a place where we exchange information on the climbs such as what is safe and where other parties may be on a given day. I said that if he sees a small group of climbers playing hackey sack, they are probably not planning to break into a bunch of cars and the parking lot is, if anything, safer while they are there.

One thing to note in any letter you might write is that there was no apparent place to buy the parking pass. I don't think there was anything on the trailhead bulletin board (was there?) that told you where you could get one on a Sunday.

I believe that at the Fall ropeup he cited two guys who never left their van.

An unfortunate ending to an otherwise enjoyable and relaxing weekend. [ 04-29-2002, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: mattp ]