mattp

I believe the "Zipper" is the "main" gully that I described. Last year, we were told on this very board that the one to the left is "Lover's Lane."

Ross - We're beating a dead horse here but the "classic" situation you describe occurs over at Vantage not infrequently. If you are like me, however, you won't be placing your gear only once every 15 feet. And you will be doubling it up immediately prior to some climbing that looks as if it is going to get hard. To do otherwise would, in my opinion, be a poor idea.

"Jugging on a thin rope wouldn't be my preference" No kidding! For fixed ropes on expedition climbs, I have seen 3/8" nylon boat rope and I've even used it upon occasion. But I don't see the advantage of the thin ropes when you're on a big wall. Hanging on, swinging on, and jugging on those things just doesn't instill confidence.

Simple, Greg. When I lead a rock pitch, I place more pro near the crux's and less pro when I do not feel that a fall is likely. If I want redundancy -- like when I am facing a scary move with crater potential below -- I place more gear. And I prefer to have both ropes connected to an anchor that is high enough on the pitch to prevent a crater when I believe a crater is a reasonable likelihood. This is easily possible over 95% of the time (either by clipping both ropes to the highest secure piece or by placing two pieces of pro and using runners to reduce drag where neessary) so there is rarely a need for me to expose myself to that situation which has repeatedly been described here as the reason that double ropes do not add redundancy.

Sorry Ross, but we've been going round and round about this all day. If you lead on double ropes, and place a piece of gear every fifteen feet, alternating clips, without regard for where the crux climbing lies, you are not properly using double rope technique in my opinion.

The main couloir, which rises from right diagonally up and left, is pretty much a walk-up that barely gets steeper than 35 degrees, though it is in an interesting location, and empties out a couple hundred feet below the summit. More step kicking then leads to the summit rocks, where there is a short bit of semi-technical climbing (like 30 to 50 feet max). To the left of the main couloir is another, that is much narrower and a little steeper and often has one or two icy steps, followed by an interesting traverse back into the main one. Near the top of the main one is a chimney system heading up and right that is more technical - mixed and rather steep though probably not more than a ropelength of hard climbing. The problem I have had with the Tatoosh Range is that they don't open the gate early enough in the morning. These routes on Lane Peak are short enough that a late start is OK, but the late gate openings are still a pain in the neck and anything more complex becomes pretty difficult if you can't leave the car before 10:00 a.m. So you may have to drive up the night before and I don't think you are supposed to spend the night in the parking lot.

The kinko's near my office used to have a slide adapter for their scanner, but they no longer do. I have recently bought a flat-bed scanner that came with a slide adapter, but I have yet to get it to work. I'll have to go home during business hours to call the help line when there is somebody to answer.

It comes with a complimentary deck and custom mattress for the canopy. This rig is sweet!

Smoker - I believe you are correct about the testing routines. However, I also think the underlying question is fair: if my 9mm stratos is strong enough to lead on, why don't I just use it as a single rope? Notwithstanding Ross' conclusion to the contrary, I actually think we HAVE addressed that question in this thread. I do use it as a single rope, but when I really want an unquestionnable rope (or as close to that as is generally thought practical), I use a rope that is made for that purpose.

There are at least three Mount Washington's in Washington and Oregon. All three are day climbs.

Are you talking about the W. Ridge? Last time I was there, you drove as far as you could, and then just walked up the road extension heading up and left toward the ridgeline (I think there may have been a switchback in the road, but it was fairly obvious which way to go). The flagged trail took off straight uphill something like 100 yards short of the timber, and perhaps 100 yards right of the crest of the ridge. The route goes more or less straight up that ridge the entire way, with only some slight deviation to the right fairly high up.

In my opinion, Forrest has it right. Get some board-lasted shoes that are comfortable for all-day wear. I never thought of using the insoles, but that sounds like the way to go!

Darin has it right. This is a GREAT forecast for the weekend warrior who wants to climb something snowy. Cross your fingers.

"what is this shit? pick on trask day?" No. If credit card fraud is not your thing, leave the card at home, shed that bracelet and lets see you in Seattle. I'll buy you a round or three.

I don't know about that one, Greg. Does it take the glaciated trough that is W of the rib W of the NE Buttress? It may be less technical than descending the NE Buttress would be, but if it is where I am imagining it to be, I believe it is exposed to lots of falling seracs. I believe that the W. descent is not terribly difficult in the Summer, when there is not snow along the crest, but I am not surprised that Colin and Marko found it rather challenging last week! When I climbed the route, in late season, I descended the south face. I scrambled all the way down it and although I ended up bivyying before I got off of it, I had started down from the summit around sunset and the descent took less than two hours total time to reach the alp slope below the S. Face (a long where from anywhere but at least it was terra relatively firma). I think the moral of the story is that there is no easy way off JoBerg.

And there is more than that. With two ropes, you can reduce rope drag, you have less fear of the ropes being cut over an edge, you can rappel a full ropelength, you can belay two seconds, and you can also have a tight belay on the last piece you placed while you are reaching up and clipping the other rope over your head. This is very comforting if you are shakey at the stance from where you are trying to clip. Personally, I find the redundancy and the flexibility of climbing with double ropes very helpful although the extra complexity is not always warranted and I have some partners (belayers) who just plain can't get the hang of watching two ropes.

Trask: why don't you bring that magic credit card of yours? You can let Dave sign your name all night and then, the next morning, call in and report your card stolen. Everybody wins.

"Dem skinny ropes seem really boingy. " They are, and I think they stretch more than a single fat one though I could be wrong. The stretch is often a disadvantage when you are hanging on the ropes, and you gotta be careful not to let go of the rope at the bottom of a rappel some times.

Excuse me, I'll rephrase.

Watch out for that math. If what you did was to determine that the cross sections add up to the same surface area, you have only determined just that: cross section add up to the same surface area. I would venture a guess that this does not correspond directly with stretch or with the dynamic characteristics of the system. Consider, also, that if nothing else there will always be some difference in the tension placed on the two ropes, even if both ropes are clipped to every piece using twin rope technique, because one strand or the other will almost certainly have a slightly greater bit of slack or an extra twist in it.

Thanks, Thinker. I think most people who browse this site realize that the club-bashing is what it is: mostly entertainment but also true to some degree: the clubs, while they offer a relatively safe and structured introduction to the sport of climbing, have their limitations. And accidents on club outings are not uncommon although the rate of accidents on these outings appears to be higher than it actually is because these groups are much more likely to report a mishap than might a bunch of independent climbers who don't have an organization watching over their shoulder. Trask: do you have to shit on every thread?

Jim - I repeat: two ropes is two ropes. That IS redundancy because, by definition, if one rope should fail you are counting on the other. As I noted above, I have never heard a story of a rope breaking from force, but I have heard plenty of stories of their breaking over an edge. And also as I noted above, I have never heard of two ropes being cut at the same time. What is this "unless you clip both ropes at every anchor" thing? When using double rope technique (as opposed to twin) I never clip both ropes to every protection point but I do sometimes clip both to the same piece right before a crux move or I place two pieces of gear shortly below a crux move and clip both ropes. (And don't tell anybody, but I don't always use two separate biners when I clip the ropes to a single piece, as is recommended by the rope manufacturers and the alpine club. And I have taken plenty of falls this way and I ihaven't shredded a rope yet.) I know nobody who faces a crux move and doesn't look for an opportunity for anchors for both ropes unless they are worried about rope drag, and in this case they often secure both ropes but put a couple of long runners on their gear. I believe Forrest is right: fat ropes are WAY stronger than they need to be. I climb on a single 9mm Edelweiss quite often, and it is rated to hold a fall over an edge with a single strand. I believe it is plenty safe. But when I'm on something more serious, I want two ropes or a fat one. It is kind of like doubling up on pro: one bomber piece just before a hard move is by definition sufficient. But most of us want two. And I agree with Ian - overanalysis is an issue here. The main thing is to climb at some minimum standard of safety and beyond that, do what you are comfortable with. Every pitch need not be set up as might be a rescue rig, but some poeple feel the need to have cordellettes' equalized anchors with directionals at every belay on a long alpine rock climb. Matt

Ross, I don't know what you are talking about with this 75' minimum for the second rope to prevent a groundfall. Yes, if you have anywhere near enough rope out to hit the ground, you are likely to find that in the event of a fall there is sufficient rope stretch that you will crater. And yes, if you fall through space you will gain speed until you reach terminal velocity so that a partial stop after 30 feet would theoretically allow some carry-over momentum and a second catch at 60 feet would be intense indeed. But when I go climbing, that is never how it works. Two ropes are two ropes. That is called redundancy. And most people I know look around for some kind of pro as close to (but before) they make a hard move as possible. In fact, I often clip both ropes just before a hard move and wherever possible this means that I am looking at a maximum of a twenty foot fall onto either rope. Also, most natural rock climb takes place on terrain that is less than vertical so there is friction between climber and rock during a long fall.

Yo Cavey - Slop is right. I wasn't dissing you. I merely stated that both peaks were significantly more formed up at that time. I might also have added that there was then three feet of snow along side the highway at Colonial Creek, and that the snow cover in the woods made an approach directly up the creek almost friendly. I figured this topic was intended to present information, and I thought mine was pertinent.

Those are good knots and all, but what is a mule knot? And what is that slip knot all about? My old friend who used to run a cross country ski area (Scottish Lakes) where lots of climbers used to hang out was always complaining about those god damned knots that the climbers always tied and which he couldn't untie. He was always begging us to do it the easy way with square knots and half hitches.