mattp

jb- I could be wrong, but I think the flooding associated with rain on snow that you are thinking of may be that which frequently occurs in the fall, when heavy rains fall on unconsolidated and relatively shallow snow that immediately melts away and adds to the runoff, rather than acting to some degree like a sponge, as the snowpack will at this time of year.

'Sorry Cracked. I have a picture taken from below the route, but nothing of much interest. I don't know who my witnesses were, either.

It was mid-july, after a drier than normal June, so that there had been almost no new snow on the Carbon Glacier for six or seven weeks. There were lots of crevasses, of course, but everything was pretty easy to read. I climbed on a weekend, so there were fresh tracks from other parties, and I used a ski pole (sans basket) to probe around the edge of anything that looked questionable. I'm not saying that crossing the Carbon unroped was "safe," but I will say that I had nothing like the scary experiences that you described in your report above.

Dru- Our forecast is specifically stated to be for areas below 7,000 feet, and this mostly means areas at or below treeline, so your correlation might be expected to at least some degree. I have, as Josh indicated, found scary slopes when the hazard was rated only "considerable" or something, but I don't think they under-rate the hazard in the Washington forecast if you look at how the hazard levels are defined. And certainly, I have been skiing up around Pemberton when I thought they may have slightly overrated the hazard - at least as far as the Duffy Lake road peaks were concerned, and this may be due to what you pointed out about how they have one rating for everywhere from Chilcotin to Serratus. Meanwhile, how about this weather, huh? I don't have to check the avvy forecast to know that there must be some HUGE piles of avvy debris in the basin below the north side of Mount Shuksan right now and it would probably be a good area to avoid for the next couple of days.

ChucK. Don't misconstrue me -- I AM NOT UPSET, OK?????? I only indicated that I thought Pope's diversion with his anti-bolting rant was off the track, and that nobody should think they have to keep it to theirself if, in the middle of a snowstorm or in any other situation they feel compelled to use a piton on a "clean" climb. It's all about keeping the discussion real, and as "on track" as possible -- and I believe I suggested that I thought this has INDEED been a thoughtful discussion. I AM NOT PISSED. OK???? grrrrr

Indeed, I soloed it and I did downclimb the route. Everytime I recommend this, I draw copious amounts of argument about how carrying over is the only way to do the route, but I would seriously consider downclimbing it. I believe that, while a traverse of the mountain has its attractions, the reason most parties carry over is because they expect to find it too difficult to descend Liberty Ridge, and I think this probably means they do not belong on the route in the first place. So, Sexy -- think about this when you plan your climb: if you would not be comfortable downclimbing the route, what are you going to do if you drop an ice tool, if the weather turns bad, or if you or your partner suffer altitude sickness? Anyway, it was great to do the climb with a daypack and I made it up and back to Thumb Rock before any other party even made it up the route that day. I was able to approach the route from Ipsut Creek which is certainly easier than hiking all the way around from White River, and the descent was very straight-forward (I even made it home in time to catch a nap before going out to a barbecue that evening). It wasn't effortless, but it WAS cool.

Fleb and Spanker might be read to imply that it is not OK to pound a pin -- except that it is OK to do so if nobody knows about it. I know that is not what they stated, but it is not far from what they implied. Sure, most Index regulars will probably agree that bcollins shouldn't have taken pins on that climb and if he thought he was going to need them because it was cold and wet out, he probably should have opted for a different climb (one that he could climb in the generally accepted manner); but I bet Pope is right that two months from now, nobody will probably even be able to tell where he used the pins. So the biggest harm that could come from this incident, in my view, would be for folks to conclude (once again) that they cannot ever reveal something they are not proud of on cc.com because they will only get shat upon by a bunch of idiots, or that they can't ever discuss clean climbing without being called a hypocrite or worse. If these kinds of discussions are to have any value at all on this board, we have to be able to discuss real-life situations in an honest manner.

It seems to me that May or June is the most common time for parties to get into trouble on the route. During the "late spring" things seem to be falling down a lot, and the weather is generally more unstable at this time of year than later in the season. Also, if you are worried about falling into a crevasse, "late Spring" snowcover can conceal some pretty poor snowbridges. I've only done the climb once, but on that occasion (in mid July), the glacier crossing was perfectly easy and although there was a little extra rubble climbing below Thumb Rock, perhaps, the snow was firm, there was good ice around the Black Pyramid, and the climb was probably overall easier than when Bug climbed it earlier in the season.

Pope- I am surprised that you would advise someone not to discuss ethics on this board! You add a gratuitous dig at bolting, so you obviously think some measure of discussion is appropriate but maybe you have grown tired of back-and-forth discussions? You added a different perspective on this issue (that pounding a pin in a snowstorm may have been acceptable), and I think that the weather conditions certainly make me feel differently about it than I might had it been sunny out but on balance I'd say they probably shouldn't have done the route if they wern't ready to do it with what is generally thought acceptable technique. But the cool thing is that we have seen a couple different viewpoints and, so far, nobody has thought they had to personally attack anyone else. Right or wrong, bcollins and anyone else who reads this have a chance to think about the issue.

See the rules of pubclub. RPC 74.a(3) provides, in pertinent part: "....NO GLOATING...".

minx- All you gotta do is to go to the sports bar accross the parking lot from your office and you can get a head start on pubclub while you wait. Drink non-alcoholic near-beer, of course.

Yo, Natural. Don't sweat it. The answer is "A AND B," not "A OR B." The most obvious gully-- that is the deepest spindrift trough, actually was the one that trended rightward. At the time, we could see that we were indeed taking a "fork" in the sense that we could have continued more straight up, and the parties that followed us a few days later took a more straight up finish because, I think, the way we took looked as if it might lead to a greater cornice problem. Like they say -- "it's all good" (at least as long as you top out and then find your way back down again in one piece).

Actually, you could have topped out to the right. When Dan and I did the climb, we took a right-forking couloir about 300 feet below the summit ridge and it topped out close to that right-most peak. Dru-why don't you go "stir the pot" in Spray.

It has been a long time since I've been up there, but I bet this would still be a good, easy tour: from the Gold Creek snowpark, head up the road on the W side of the Gold Creek valley and it will turn left, then climb up to a knob on a subsidiary of Kendall Ridge. This is all clearcut, but here you get to an overlook viewing the pass and the ski areas. Then head up hill and left and you'll end up on a frozen lake in the woods, and I believe it is a reasonably easy climb to the second lake but it seems to me that the climb to the third lake may be rather steep. If you don't like clearcuts, you more quickly enter big timber in Commonwealth Basin. Approach through the private ski area accross the street from the Washington Alpine Club (they will yell at you and threaten to call the police for tresspassing) or approach from the back road off the north side of the highway there at the first Snoqualmie Pass exit but this way, you will have a short but somewhat difficult climb up a steep hill with thick second (third?) growth trees. In the basin, there are lots of big trees and a couple of frozen waterfalls.

'Carefull with the blanket statements, Catbird. I for one might be "stupid enough" to go backcountry skiing if I didn't have other activities planned for this weekend. As they say on the avalanche hotline, "there are avalanche-safe areas in all conditions" and I am fully confident that I could go get some turns in a clearcut somewhere, or in the woods, without taking great risks. To suggest that anybody who would go backcountry skiing this weekend is "stupid" is a little extreme. Also, as you learned in kindergarten, "accidents happen." Should somebody go out and get involved in an avalanche, to immediately proclaim that they were "stupid" without information about what actually happened would show only that you are one who might have stayed home when the avalanche hazard is rated high, but not necessarily that you know anything about avalanche conditions or hazard management.

One thing to be aware of, though, is that I think a common feeling in the Wenatchee area is that the Post Intelligencer (wasn't it them?) completely misconstred the story about the botched investigation into that sex scandal a couple years ago, and that there was in fact serious sexual abuse going on and the expose was in part fabricated so that some Seattle reporters could promote their own careers. A story that was critical of law enforcement in the area may in fact only embolden them as their neighbors perceive them as victims of the Seattle media and talk about how they hate those god damned 206'ers anyway!

There will be another story on Fred in tomorrow's Post Intelligencer.

Erik- In my view, the attitude problem in the Leavenworth district is coming from the top, and I'm not sure a news article in the Seattle papers would really help all that much -- the district ranger certainly rebuffed my attempt to address the issue, as well as attempts made by the Access Fund and other people. But an article comparing how various ranger districts and other jurisdictions deal with climbers around the state might be interesting.

I'd say a good story would be one about search and rescue operations: what kind of folks are rescued and where, who participates in SAR operations, why they do it, etc.

And from Tuesday: catbird and DPS: newstips and alpentom

That cat of yours can really pack 'em away, huh?

Had you been there last night, you could have met the fathers of cc.com for the real story... jon and tim

You could be right that there are times when the Dry Gulch route would make a good descent route, Jim, but I would stress (as you pointed out) that it would depend on conditions. A friend of mine once climbed the gully between the two north ribs, which i think tops out quite close to the summit, and he reported that even from there, it took a fairly long time to traverse the peak and reach the Dry Gulch descent; he said a descent back down the North Face (not even the NW Ridge) would have been much easier on that particular occasion and he opined that he would plan to descend the N. Face rather than the Dry Gulch if he ever went back.

Tom- Actually, I believe the NW Ridge descent is probably both easier and quicker than traverssing over the summit and descending the dry gulch route. I have talked to folks who have done it both ways, and it sounds as if it is not exactly trivial to get from the top of any of the N. Face routes over the crest of the peak and down to the Dry Creek descent route. The Spindrift is on the far right side of the N. Face, topping out a fairly long way from the actual summit, so this would be all the more true for that route. Although Mike and Matt had the unfortunate luck of getting sucked down into the wrong drainage, the NW Ridge is actually a fairly reasonable descent for anybody who belongs on the North Face in the winter!