mattp

I bet that less than one party in ten continues to the actual summit after climbing the Triple Couloirs, North Face, Backbone Ridge or any other route in that area.

Saturday and Sunday, my buddy John and I skied up over Aasgard Pass and then out via Prussik Pass and Toketie. Visibility was very poor almost the entire way, though we had some brief clearing as we crossed Prussik Pass, and even a spot of sun over near Edward Mesa. There was good snow up on the plateau, but below about 6,000 feet the snowpack was saturated and rotten isothermal. The boot-path from the trailhead to Colchuck Lake was a pain in the neck so we opted to skin up rather than walk. At Colchuck Lake, we stopped for a meal and a rest before proceeding across the lake, where it looked as if all other parties were keeping to the shore for some reason we couldn't understand. Perhaps they don't share our belief that a snow-covered frozen lake in the Cascades is pretty much always safe to walk on. The slopes up Aasgard started out with perfect skinning on just a bit of soft surface snow, but became icy enough and steep higher up that we had to take the skis off and, for short stretches, scratch our way upward (as others noted last week, crampons would have been helpful here). In failing light, we set a camp on the Enchantment Plateau, and it was at this moment calm enough that we didn't bother sealing the edges of the Megamid, a mistake we badly regretted as we were lashed in the face with snow for the next two hours but too comfy in our sleeping bags to go out and do anything about it. The snow conditions up on top were quite good, with enough fresh snow over a somewhat icy base to allow easy touring and turning. Nothing appeared ready to slide, and indeed the steep slope north of Prussik Pass stayed in place as we skied it one-at-a-time. The descent from Toketie Lake was brutal; in the fog we missed the route around the rib to get out of the Toketie drainage, and fought our way down Toketie Creek itself as rotten snow over steep, rocky slopes gave way to rotten snowpatches over brush and logs. A somewhat dicey log crossing at Snow Creek was a very welcome site indeed!

Josh - Like I said last week, I bet they don't want a bunch of self-rigihteous climbers thinking they can push it as far as possible and then getting stuck or tearing up the side of the road when they try to turn around. There was no real pullout anywhere near where the snow blocked the road and if they had put up a sign saying "Park here" at the last one, a half mile below, most of us would probably have ignored it. As much as I think the Leavenworth rangers suck, I can't criticize them for keeping that road gaited at least until some reasonable turn-around point melts out.

Good point. Way too many folks around here think that working toward peace is for pussies.

Single malt....

A 5" spackle knife is a handy tool -- you can broadly scrape away walls of lichen and you can carve the edges of a crack and pop out plugs of dirt. But you gotta have something stiff and strong, like the pick of an alpine hammer, to really go at a dirt and brush choked crack.

Actually Fairweather, I bet that if by "you lefties" you mean those who have debated the merits of the war, or who have argued for gun control, or whatever, I bet few of us are very familiar with this guy and very few of us would agree with his game plan.

Right you are, Drew, that most parties will leave their tent at high camp if they are planning on returning that way so they may in fact have less with them on the summit than they would if they were carring everything over. However, when planning a traverse of the mountain, and particularly when this involves hiking a quarter of the way around the mountain before you even start the climb, the great temptation is to bring as little as possible. I bet that those who plan to downclimb their ascent route on Mount Rainier, on average, bring more camping and storm gear than those who plan a traverse. I bet, too, that they are more likely to find their way back to their high camp when bad weather overtakes them then the carry-over parties are likely to find their way down a completely different route. As to altitude illness, I agree with Attitude that it is a big deal. And with regard this issue, too, I think the carry-over parties are in greater danger because they spend much more time high on the mountain. When I climbed Liberty Ridge with a day pack (which did, by the way, include emergency bivvy gear), I was up and back down to Thumb Rock before any other party that day even made it up to Liberty Cap. And I am no athelete. Mike is right to point out that I haven't exactly acknowedged some of the obvious dangers in downclimbing the Liberty Ridge or Ptarmigan Ridge -- many people are not as adept as climbing back down as they are in climbing up in the first place, and these descents involve having to run the gauntlet of the rockfall-prone lower slopes twice rather than only once (and, Brian, my friends who have climbed the Ptarmigan Ridge have been unanimous in telling me they were much more scared on the first part of the climb, right out of camp, than they were on the exit gullies or anything else high on the climb). Again, I am not saying nobody should try to complete a carry-over. But their game plan should not rely upon this, and they should carry adequate gear to withstand a storm. Based on the accident history over the years, many people underestimate Liberty Ridge in particular.

No, Catbird, I don't think he's kidding. Even on Ptarmigan Ridge, one of the more technical routes on the mountain, there is not that much truly technical climbing. You have to traverse some steep slopes that can be icy, and there may be as much as a half-pitch of rock, I think, but it is not the technical crux that is the real challenge on that route -- at least not for someone who has what I would consider the appropriate skill. Mike is right, of course, that I am speaking agains the great weight of popular opinion and standard wisdom as I continue to advocate at least considering downclimbing routes such as Liberty Ridge and Ptarmigan Ridge. Mike obviously knows more about Mount Rainier than I do, and I don't wish to challenge his authority on the matter, but I seriously think it is a big mistake to climb Liberty Ridge or Ptarmigan Ridge with the assumption that you are going to carry over -- it causes people to head up there without an adequate tent or even complete bivouac gear and I believe this approach leads people to forge on ahead in the face of bad weather, altitude sickness or unexpected slow progress, or to discard the possibility of a retreat even after someone in their party has gotten injured. I think some of the accident reports that Mike posted the other day support this belief. I have never said that downclimbing these routes is the only way to go, and I am not seeking to discourage someone from going up there with the hope of completing a carry-over, but I have consistently argued that someone who does not think they could downclimb Liberty Ridge or Ptarmigan Ridge should probably not start up them in the first place.

What is your point here? Our own government spokesmen tell us that the war is not over yet, that bitter fighting continues, that they don't know where Saddam is, that he may retreat to his home town where we haven't been anywhere near, and that there may yet be some tough battles ahead. I'd say the NYT headline is more descriptive of the actual situation -- it is too early to celebrate the final outcome of this war yet. Is that your point??

Don't automatically assume it has to be a carry over. It certainly can be done that way, but in fact almost everybody I know that climbed Ptarmigan Ridge downclimbed the route.

I agree with what you wrote, Thinker, but if you have the tarp, you don't need the bivy bag. A headnet maybe, but why carry the extra bivy bag?

For what it's worth, I have had a North Face West Wind for 20 years and it is a little too old to take up Mount Rainier because I don't trust the fabric, but I can honestly say that it is all around the best mountain tent I've ever had and the Hilleberg Nallo 2 is very similar, though perhaps the West Wind's three hoops over the body of the tent rather than two may have made it a little stronger. In high winds, the Westwind performed as well as the free standing 4-season domes that weighed nearly twice as much; in snow it performed nearly as well; and in a casual camping situation I would use long strings front and rear and a single anchor six feet away (or further) from each end was sufficient for both corners at either end because the hoop kept them spread sufficiently. I never once had serious trouble getting it properly anchored - there were aways rocks, trees, bushes, stuff sacks full of snow, ice axes, skis, or whatever I needed anywhere that I ever set it up. I wouldn't buy a single wall tent unless I was planning to use it for winter climbing or expeditions - but not for summer camping in Washington.

Both "stories" may be correct. I heard that somebody told another somebody and then I think they posted it here on cc.com that it was 5.hard but if you yarded on bolts at the cruxes it would go at 5.10.

It is possible that they don't want some climbers to drive as far as they can and then leave their cars parked in the roadbed or tear up the shoulder when they get stuck or can't travel any further.

Right you are, Trask: there is no comparison. Clinton was elected; Bush wasn't. Clinton was impeached for lying about a blow job and failing to get away with it; Bush has repeatedly lied about his justification for this war and so far he's gotten away with it. The corruption in the Clinton administration was junior league compared to Bush, too. There truly IS no comparison.

Mine was the Grateful Dead, Asleep at the Wheel, Commander Cody, and Ann Arbor's own Boogie Brothers. 1971.

The large flake that you sit on to belay at the top of what I show as the third pitch of the "Blueberry Route" is gone. This same flake formed the "crack" system that one formerly climbed to get to that belay. It'll be interesting to see what we find when we go up there this spring. By the way, the approach to Blueberry Hill, and the climbs on that side of the dome, are particularly worriesome in the Spring if you don't like the idea of getting beat up in a climax avalanche.

Two months ago, the road to Three O'Clock Rock was fine and several of us are waiting for it to dry up a bit so we can go check out the winter's damage. There are always surprises in store each year and we know, for example, that a large (like maybe sixty feet tall) flake on the West Buttress route on Blueberry Hill has completely fallen off, and it may have taken out part of Dark Rhythm. If you do head up there in the next few weeks, bring a saw and be ready to find a tree accross the road somewhere. Also, expect snow in the woods and along the bottom of the crags -- there are likely to be steep, hard snow "aprons" at the base of the routes and water dripping from snow patches up on the crags into May and possibly June. Also, realize that lingering snow patches on the rock have a habit of cutting loose in a spectacular fasion sometimes, so you may want to avoid routes that have these on the approach or above the climb itself.

I'm really commenting on my own personal problem, I guess. The "tick list" effect of "Fifty Classic Climbs" and "Select Climbs" is so strong that for years I found it difficult to find partners for routes that were not featured in those books -- everybody seemed to think that if a route was not featured there, it COULDN'T be any good. This website has really helped to put me in touch with a wider base of like-minded climbers, but I still carry a grudge.

Aha. Another vote for quality. Apparently I just wasn't having all that great of a day when I did the route and maybe I should try that one again some time. But you and PMS do not answer the question: would you have repeated it so many times (I presume this means many times more than any other similary sized route at the Pass) if it were not on THE LIST? In other words, has it drawn more of your attention, at least in part, because of its status as a "classic?" I did not mean to suggest that the routes in that book are bad ones, but (1) they are not always the best choices in the area where they may be found and (2) those who pursue those climbs over others, simply because they are in that book, are not going to be choosing the best climbs available to them on any given outing.

If you've climbed that route 12 times, you'd certainly know the climb better than I do and I bet you are right that the second half is better than I remember it -- but if it were not on THE LIST, would you still have climbed it twelve times? Is it THAT good?

Ian's picture show's cross loading. The thing about it that can be deceptive is that a relatively small terrain change, such as a non-descript moraine or even just a little creek gully, can be loaded up and unstable even where the overall slope is otherwise just fine. I once triggered a very impressive hard slab avalanche on the south side of Granite Mountain in the spring, when the slope had rocks and grass showing through just about all over it and I had no idea there was any potential danger at all. Your classic lee-slope snow bowl is much more obvious.

The entire slope from Colchuck Lake to Aasgard Pass is 3,000 feet of non-stop avalanche hazard. It probably has been mostly wind-scoured lately, and not as hazardous as some other slopes in the vicinity, but do not ignore the reality that there could be cross-loading on some of it and you will be taking your chances. I think that nearly all of this year's avalanche deaths, or most of them, occurred in times of "considerable" or lower overall hazard rating. Upon checking the avalanche site, I see that you did not look at the applicable forecast. That one says: EAST SLOPES WASHINGTON CASCADES.... Moderate avalanche danger below 7000 feet slightly increasing later Tuesday morning through Tuesday night with greatest danger close to the crest. Moderate avalanche danger slightly increasing Wednesday afternoon, decreasing Wednesday night. Moderate is better than "considerable," and I would probably head up there and have a look if that was somewhere I really wanted to go .... but BE CAREFUL. If anybody tells you "its safe," don't listen.

Agreed. I've had an enjoyable day of skiing on the Fryingpan Glacier in early August, but all of the September trips I've made, and some of the October ones, pretty much were worth it only so I could put a checkmark on the calendar. Watch out for that tick list cause it will cause you to do silly things!!!