mattp

That's great, smart guy. I'm glad we have you around to do our homework for us. Does that change anything about Oly's point or mine? Are you suggesting that corporate America or the U.S. government is going to staighten up and fly right as a result of this?

Yes, they are big fish for sure. But Oly could be right: there may be equally big fish or even bigger ones who they are NOT going to prosecute but who have done things just as bad. After all, some fairly spectacular cases have "gone down" - like remember when Martha Stewart got fried for insider trading? - yet I am pretty sure some major players continue to engage in the same conduct. I give 'em credit for at least getting these guys, though.

Gary, I don't know for sure if this is true or not but it strikes me that there is increasingly less interest in mountain climbing among younger folks these days, even more than the reduced climber numbers we are seeing at Mount Rainier or the North Cascades. I also think that younger folks are less and less inclined to join an organization.

And this...

More fun with Bush.

Last time Silent Running was mentioned on cc.com:

For sure.

I found a #4 or 4.5 camelot handy on both the first and last pitches. How was the descent. The anchors are good, you report. Isn't there a bunch of snow on the north side? Rockshoes OK there?

As far a clogging up certain climbs, I'd say an appealing trip report on cc.com is a much bigger problem for clogging a climb than any mountaineer party. If one guy comes back and says he had a good time on, say, Dragontail, the route will be clogged for the next three weeks!

Mountie bashing is great sport and all, but there are a couple of points I think have been underemphasized here: (1) This and most similar accidents seem to happen on non-technical or vaguely technical terrain where rock climbing prowess is not much of a factor. I have seen plenty of strong rock climbers who could not safely navigate a messy gully or slippery slab and who would have NO business leading a group of inexperienced clmbers on such terrain. (2) In this particular instance, we still don't really know if anybody did anything any of us would deem stupid. (3) The Mountaineers and just about any other climbing school tend to develop funny safety policies and inconsistent yet generally timid approaches to many climbing situations because that is what a large organization tend to do. I've had friends come out of a mountaineers course with funny ideas about how much gear is needed for a particular type of climb or whatever, but I don't blame that on the organization.

Nor does the fact that they cratered a hole.

Things are different in Europe and they definitely have different sensibilities. Usually they just have a greater tolerance for crowing, whether at belays or even with simutaneous parties on a single pitch, but they also sometimes get more aggressive than we do. I once had an eastern European climber pull on my lead rope while I was leading in the Bugaboos and I saw a a multilinqual shouting and biner tossing matches erupt when a French climber did this to a Spanish woman at Verdon. However, even among Americans and Canadians there can be quite different levels of tolerance. Some people are more comfortable with sharing belay stations or even pro than are others. By the way: running both ropes through the same biners is call "twin rope technique" as opposed to "double." I didn't see what they were doing, but it may well have been a "proper" technique.

Sorry to offend you,Dred, but I think Doug more or less has it right: if somebody wants to find out what happened in an accident, they should be able to ask about it on this site without having the discussion steered into “the Mountaineers are gapers” or “only a bozo would propose adding a bolt.” To be fair, the discussion had not yet tanked when I complained about it but it looked to me as if it was heading in that direction. In complaining about censorship you are missing the mark, in my opinion. There is plenty of bashing on the Mountaineers and plenty of bitching about bolts on cc.com, but the opportunities for someone to ask sincere questions about novice level rock climbs or reveal their role in an accident like this one without getting called a bunch of names are relatively few. It didn't exactly happen here, but n discussions like this, something closer to censorship in its actual impact is often imposed by the few who hold themselves out as more knowledgeable climbers and suggest that lesser climbers deserve no respect.

As to this particular accident, we don't seem to have much information but in general, as one who has led group climbs and taken relatively inexperienced climbers out quite a bit, I'd say that class 3 - class 4 terrain presents more difficult challenges for party management than does the technical rock and the consequences of an unexpected slip can in many cases be greater, too.

I don't know about 5.4, but I've always thought Martian Diagonal and Midway were outstanding routes at 5.6. Both may be a little adventurous for some climbers but I have taken folks up both of them for their first climb.

As one of our esteemed veteran posters pointed out not long ago (was it Peter Puget?), we seem to see a lot of tales of accidents posted by or happening to cc.com regulars, too. Maybe as many "per capita" as the Mountaineers or perhaps even more. Perhaps cc.com should be shut down in the interest of keeping gapers out of the mountains? Or maybe simply in the interst of keeping gapers from spraying some unfounded "analysis" on Monday morning. My best to the injured climber, but I don't think we are doing well to argue about whether a bolt should be added to the top of Yellowjacket Tower or whether the Mountaineers are losers without some specific information and ideas to discuss.

Tomorrow is my birthday, too. I won't make it, though.

The radio newscaster said "SHOT" with a taser and "SHOT" with tranquilizer darts. I think you used a fair word, there, Oly. Archenemy is just a little sensitive that we may try to take her guns away.

Yes, we'll want to come prepared. If you want to help replace a couple of those worrisome bolts, I might prepare for that too.

How big are the trees accross the trail? Bow saw or whip saw?

Bigtree has some good advice but if the snow is soft enough that you can plunge in a picket by hand, you should not place any faith whatsoever in a picket. Further, I bet you will be suprised at how POOR an anchor a picket is if you run some practice tests even in fairly firm summer snow by placing a picket and then having you and a couple of friends try to pull it out. In a frozen snowpack, pickets can be OK. In a summer snowpack in the Cascades, I would exclusively bury a picket or axe deadman style - and I'd entrench it as deep as possible.

As to "aura," I think the Curtis Ridge route on Mount Rainier sees few ascents in part because of the fact that there was at least one bad accident there many years ago. I've been told it is a good route, though. Also, the 5.9 off-width on Backbone Ridge seems to deter parties who are plenty capable of climbing it.

The last pitch of Aries at Index has a pretty intimidating 5.8 chimney move out around a roof. Some lower portions of the route are just plain hard for the grade more than they are intimidating per se.

The Summit Wall at Mt. Erie is good for kids, too.

Is that Rudy? This looks like the pot has been calling the kettle purple.