mattp

Certainly there is some sales value in salacious material and we are more likely to find it interesting that someone was a prostitute as opposed to a sales clerk, but part of that also reflects the fact that when it comes to random attack and street crime, prostitutes are in a high risk occupation that may in itself contribute to the circumstances providing opportunity for the crime. Sometimes reporters are trying to report pertinent information but end up accused of perpetrating stereotypes or the ongoing oppression of women.

Really, WE are about as close as it has come - both in terms of our ability and our stated aspirations going back over 20 years. Read this: http://work.colum.edu/~amiller/wolfowitz1992.htm Certainly we are no Nazi Germany, but no free Nation or aspiring world power of any kind can be completely comforted by the proclamations of the Wolfilwitz doctrine, the "for us or against us" rhetoric employed by our leaders since 911, or how we've come to play it out. Whatever we thought we were doing in Iraq, it has certainly proven to be a disaster and our policies with regard to Afghanistan, N. Korea or the Darfur don't appear to be working out very well either -- at least for the moment -- except that in at least some of these cases there are some friends of our first family that are making tons of money.

Plenty of folks have been asking questions, but it has pretty much uniformly been brushed off as "paranoia" or "mud slinging." Maybe it is, maybe it is not. I'm still wondering why anybody thinks we turned Saddam over to the Iraqi's -- and whether anybody actually thinks such a move was thought more likely to contribute to increased increased instability or peace and reconciliation in Iraq.

C'mon, Jay. Don't want to play? We know they lied about why we went in, they've lied about the "progress" of the war all along, and now I'm wondering if they are still lying. Paranoid? What do you think may be going on over there?

Here's another couple "paranoid" questions for you, JayB: Who is making lots of money in Iraq? Any companies with close ties to Administration officials ring a bell? How are the oil companies doing? Any connections between them and the personal interests of any U.S. leaders or their good friends the Saudi royal family? Maybe it is all going according to plan... Most here seem to agree that Saddam's trial and execution were largely a circus side show, but who wants to join in speculating about what is really going on? You too can join the fun.

A question that may have been addressed already: Why do you think we turned Saddam over to the Iraqi's for a trial that we knew would not be anything like a fair trial, and which was not to address the real crimes of Saddam's reign or address even in a tangential manner how he rose to power, who supplied him with weapons and chemicals, etc.? Didn't Milosevich go on trial at the Hague? Why not Saddam?

I have not read JayB's story, but I can only guess that we really don't know what happened. Did the stripper simply make it up? Maybe. My guess is that College authorities and the prosecutor had some reason to believe there was something to the story. But that is only a guess. As with the OJ story, or the Wenatchee sex ring case, or so many other events, we will never really know what happened. I always wonder what is the motivation for folks who beat the drum over their interpretation of a story like this whihc is high on media frenzy and low on factual certainty or any clear connection to an important public interest. At best, we should be skeptical of anybody who claims to know what is truth and justice, and who proclaims the arrogance or ignorance of those who don't conclude the same thing they do from this story.

The biggest problem with getting wet in a snowcave lies in getting soaked when digging the thing, and then bringing all your wet clothing inside and maybe wearing it in your sleeping bag. Before you work up a sweat digging and lie in the snow hauling snow out the door, strip down, or maybe wear your shell gear but none of the moisture soaking layers beneath. Dig your cave on the steep side of a drift where the snow falls out the door and you'll save some work.

I have used down bags in snow caves for years, and very often I use a bag that does not have a goretex or similar shell. I have never used any kind of sleeping bag cover. If you are careful to make the ceiling dome-shape and shave off any points that cause dripping, you won't get much drippage. If you stay on your pad, you won't be lying on the snow floor. With a bit of care, you'll probably stay drier than if you were in a tent getting frost on your bag.

Steak and Philly Cheese...

This would be the neighborhood pub type place, with decent food, as opposed to the Wedgewood Broiler accross the street -- a timeless relic from a bygone era.

The Wedgewood is not such a bad place. I used to complain about it, but I've seen the error of my ways. I have never really appreciated either the Ballroom or the Nickerson.

For many of the summits in the Tetons, all you need is a good pair of hiking boots (just about any kind will do) and some common sense -- not the Grand or Mount Owen or Mount Moran, perhaps, but several of the others. If you want to go for it on your own, I say go for it and have a good time. Keep your stupidity in check, climb EARLY in the day (thunderstorms are pretty regular in the afternoons), and choose summits that the guidebook says are class three. You don't need a guide or any significant technical skills exept snow climbing skills for these, and you'll have a great time. (Steep snow can be dangerous, though, so watch out!) Just pay attention and try not to get killed on that stream crossing where you fall through a thin snowbridge and end up beneath the snowpack or the gully where a brief step on the wrong rock will result in the big ride. There are lots of ways you could hurt yourself, but most of the danger is fairly obvious if you are paying attention. Don't underestimate what a loose piece of rock may do to you, or what you may cause it to do. To answer one of your first questions, the Tetons are definitely a "mountaineering" range in that you will have to employ techniques and judgment related to "real" mountain climbing. They are big, there are lots of steep snow slopes, the weather changes quickly, route finding can be complicated, etc. etc. But they are a great range and in times past it was thought that the Tetons was THE place to train for alpine climbing in the United States. The best climbs are generally the technical rock routes, long and moderate by "modern" standards but both challenging and exciting in most climbers' book. Whether you go backpacking or climb the North Face of the Grand, the Tetons rock.

You can burn as much money as you want on climbing equipment, that is for sure. But you can also climb most of the popular mountaineering routes with very little of the expensive gear that so many of us drool over - and this crude blanket statement applies to several of the routes in a book like Nelson and Potterfield's "Select" guidebooks and many of the recognized classics. Technical rock and ice are a little more demanding but for standard routes in the Sawtooths, Cascades, Selkirks and Canadian Rockies, you often need little more than a pair of sturdy hiking boots, an outdated ice axe you could buy at a garage sale, somebody's reject climbing rope, a half dozen 'biners and 20 feet of sling to make a harness. And your regular in-town winter coat and a garbage bag can serve as well as the latest model goretex shell and fleece combination - just about. You don't have to wait to get that high dollar job and pay off your student loans before taking a second mortgage on your home just to climb mountains.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with speculating about what this or that set of tracks may mean, or asking “dumb” questions about how one uses an ice axe to self arrest or whatever. I don’t think this is disrespectful of the climbers involved, their families, the rescue teams, or anybody else. In my view, what IS disrespectful is to come into a discussion like this with inside jokes, criticism of what someone thinks this website or the activity of mountain climbing stand for, to argue that the climbers don’t deserve a rescue effort, or to needlessly insult any of the various parties involved. And, I think, it is equally disrespectful to come into this discussion and attack someone for trying to make some sense out of all of this. We’ll all disagree where to draw these lines, I’m sure. I believe the value in this thread has been in the fact that it has at various points included friends and family of the climbers, climbers and others who knew them, rescue folks, people very familiar with Mt. Hood, and all kinds of views/ideas/ and prayers about these events. If you don't want to converse with this wide variety of participants, and if you want to argue about some tangential point, please start another discussion. The moderators here are all volunteers, and we really don't have time to closely monitor these discussions. We've done what we can to keep it somewhat on track, but the rest is up to you.

Calm down, folks. Some feel the discussion of what may have happened is inappropriate or somehow disrespectful, while others undertake such discussion trying to understand what has happened. Let's not degenerate into "Speculator!" "Am not..." "Are too..." We've discussed a lot of tangential aspects of this tragedy from how different types of cell phones work to why we climb to how the news photo's were misidentified and how we feel pride or sympathy for people we've never met. Some of the discussion probably better belongs in other areas of this board but lets keep this thread dedicated to more or less discussing the climb, the rescue, sharing information, support, etc. with the occasional deviation perhaps but not a wholescale diversion into who is "out of line." As I've said before, if you want to debate the preparedness of the climbers, the merits of mountain climbing in general, or whether or not XXXposter is a jerk, there are other threads for those discussions.

We will again be a conduit for some of the Washington reporting this year. Again, we at the Northwest Mountaineering Journal will be compiling a summary Washington State report. If you are not successful in submitting directly, we can relay anything you may have -- and we'd like to hear about it for mention in our summary as well.

BobC, climbing is probably more dangerous than boating or hunting, but maybe not by all that much depending on the type of climbing or boating you do and what your hunting practices may be. True, I've had some friends killed climbing, but then again I've known folks who died in boating accidents and, while I have not had a friend die in a hunting accident, I used to read about hunters getting killed in hunting accidents every year when I grew up in Michigan. As far as the search and rescue costs foisted upon society, I bet the costs associated with rescuing hunters and boaters is much greater than that associated with rescuing climbers. For myself, I've been climbing over 35 years and I have never been involved in an accident worse than a sprained ankle or torn ACL. I climb snow, ice, rock, alpine, whatever... Am I a particularly safe climber? Maybe or maybe not. But I don't think climbing is really as dangerous as it is made out to be and I definitely don't believe it to be in the realm of bullfighting or race car driving.

Christy, We all have different opinions about what are good and bad questions, what may be disrespectful, or whatever. Some may find any discussion at all to be disturbing or tedious or whatever, while others will want to go into minute detail. We come in all shapes and sizes.

Johnny R, I don't know what you may think is a dumb question but I would have to say it is unreasonable, in my view, to request that people refrain from asking a question here if they have not first read through all 50 pages of this discussion or conducted a Google search or whatever. I guess opinions vary on this point.

Seriously, Jason: down boy. You won't win any points with anybody by calling those who don't understand your obsession with climbing a couch potato or right wing freak. As I said on the last page: many people do not understand why someone would take the risk involved in such a silly game as mountain climbing. And this includes a lot of perfectly cool people, including atheletes, liberals, or whoever else it is that you respect. You continue to suggest that "we are better than everybody else." You'll build more common ground if you look at how what we do is really not so unique after all. For example, some of those right wingers or couch potatos you so abhor enjoy activities such as boating or hunting, hobbies that are perceived as more "mainstream" but which generate significant searches and rescues and lead to occasional accidents or deaths.

The board is what it is, but I don't see why you or anyone else have to "capitalize" on the sensational nature of this week's events to show what a jerk you are, while complaining that the press are profiteering hyena's, or that uninformed speculation from non-climbers is totally out of line, or whatever. By any standard, DeChristo, your post here is out of line.

I know we "allow" the irreverent on cc.com, but you guys know there are a bunch of friends, family, rescue people, and press reading this stuff. You have shown some restraint over the past few days, but do you really now have to compete to see who can be the most obnoxious and crude? I wish you could find other ways to entertain yourself.

Jason, While I agree that climbing is pretty cool, and I completely agree that they shouldn't close mountains based on a weather forecast, I strongly disagree with the notion that anybody who doesn’t climb must do nothing else but waste their time in front of a TV. There are all kinds of people in this world, with all kinds of interests. We are no more heroic as climbers than is those whose hobby is riding horses or collecting stamps. And many many people who would never dream of climbing do some very cool things with their spare time. Really. We do what we do for ourselves. The fact is, we DO have to defend our hobby sometimes. Many people do not understand why someone would take the risk involved in such a silly game as mountain climbing. Not all are fans of Hemingway whose famous quote celebrated the valor in bullfighting, auto racing, and mountain climbing. And, truth be told, some of us do end up requiring rescue and sometimes those who come looking for us take significant risks. Arguing that "we are better than everybody else," is not only wrong, it is counterproductive. Closer to the point, I think, is that those of us who enjoy climbing really feel that we derive a lot from it, and that it is as valid an activity as boating or hunting, hobbies that are perceived as more "mainstream" but which generate significant searches and rescues and lead to occasional accidents or deaths. Matt

Damn, Beck. That sounds like a good time.