pope

does strokin yourself make that rope stiff? Maybe your rope. Anyway, this ain't spray, so save your Ronald McDonald comments for the pirate forum.

And that's one of my major objections to sport climbing. I've clipped up a couple of routes that I know were rap bolted and was left with a favorable opinion of the climbing. Maybe one or two routes like this would improve the nature of a crag, or maybe if sport climbing were confined only to steep cliffs devoid of any crack climbs...maybe then it would be tolerable. The BIG problem is (and this was predicted by what used to be a majoritiy of climbers who objected to sport climbing back in the 1980s), there seems to be NO restraint. I've seen sport routes go in at Castle Rock within six feet of long-standing classic gear routes, I've seen bolted cracks and chipping. We have witnessed alpine sport routes go up in wilderness areas for crying out loud, and many of the creators of this mess are old and experienced enough to know better! The bottom line is that rap bolting is too friggin' easy and that too many climbers don't think twice about limiting their impulses. We've got a mess. We should be embarassed with the choices we've made.

Here's some commentary from a handful of folks who aren't allowed to comment on this site: read me.

First of all, please quote me the study, since you work in the field, in which it has been determined beyond a shadow of a doubt that "thousands of fish" were killed as a direct result of snowmobile exhaust per se. I'll bet you're speculating and/or inventing data, but you're invited to demonstrate otherwise. Second, as you mentioned, snow mobiles will eventually abandon the oily two-stroke engines. Interesting that the snow-mobile crowd can learn to improve their environmental practices while, in the last 20 years, the "tread lightly" idea has nearly disappeared from rock climbing. Thirdly, even with the current status of snowmobile use, those guys are pretty spread out, their numbers are not large. Allow me then to invent some speculative data which is probably correct: the environmental impact of automobile traffic in and out of Smith Rock since the arrival of sport climbing is probably greater than that of all snowmobile recreation in the state of Oregon. It's interesting how opponents of sport climbing are criticized for hanging on to their "traditions" for no other reasons than nostalgia and being inflexible in their thinking. Yet, sport climbing has been around for two decades in the U.S. and I submit that its impacts are ready for review. In saying that "the ship's course will never be corrected" it sounds like you are comfortable with your traditions and inflexible in YOUR thinking, incapable of recognizing that there might be another way. This is the old "there's something worse next door, so this is OK" argument. It's kind of embarassing to hide behind a bigger problem when we should be solving our own. Well then, in that case maybe you'd be in favor of getting snowmobiles in there so that we can really take advantage of the place? We're just putting the word out for younger climbers who will one day reject the direction that your generation decided to go.

No doubt that climbing difficult sport routes will make you a stronger climber and possibly improve your skills. But several questions need to be asked. (1) Would the standards found throughout the various activities related to mountaineering have increased without sport climbing? Probably. Isn't climbing more and more difficult routes just the natural evolution of the sport? (2) Were standards increasing before bolts and sport climbing became so pervasive? (The answer is YES). Again, isn't climbing more and more difficult routes just the natural evolution of the sport? (3) Are there other forms of training that are less destructive but equally effective for increasing skills and fitness? Bouldering, gym climbing, toproping (let's face it, that's pretty much what sport climbing amounts to anyway), not to mention a bunch of dirty 5.12 climbs at Index that could probably handle some traffic. (4) Even if you believe that only sport climbing could have brought us today's difficulty standards, is this worth the cost of the negative impacts sport climbing has produced? I suppose "super alpinists" are pretty inspiring, but I could live without the latest copy of the Alpine Journal if we could see Vantage and Smith Rock return to pre-1986 status. (5) Suppose the next generation of climbers believes that only through chipping holds and injecting steroids can the sport truly advance to the next level. Will we endorse such activities in the name of a couple of extra letter grades?

Impossible is a strong word. I don't have the details in front of me, but it's documented that, for example, the Huber brothers have put up long routes on steep rock at a 5.13 and even 5.14 standard...all on the lead and with respectable distance between bolts. I'm impressed and amazed by such climbing. Yes, they are using bolts but in a real and demanding situation and with great restraint.

I agree. This is a problem. Right, it's not environmentally damaging in the way an oil spill is. It has more to do with aesthetics and recreation in the outdoors. Every time a line of bolts is placed on rappel, it presents a blemish on the landscape, the environmental impacts of the crowd attracted thereto notwithstanding. The result is that every subsequent climbing party in the area near the route is impacted. Also, the new bolts erase a potential new route for any future party that would like to climb it boldly from the ground up, to actually ASCEND (that idea used to be important) the rock while fighting to get an occasional bolt for protection while their lives actually depend on it. If you don't leave the rock the way you found it, you are no longer talking about the "style" of the climb, you're talking about ethics, and I would like to see rock climbing move closer to a "leave no trace" ethic. Let's pratice restraint in bolting. Let's save bolting for those who are bold enough to do it while ascending. First of all, you're assuming I'm looking down my nose. That may be the case, or it could just be that I'm sharing a space with folks who leave what I consider to be garbage all over the rock. These days I have very little interest in developing my ego through rock climbing. I'm too friggin' busy with life and its obligations to worry about whether climbing gives me some kind of special status or worth. I think you're right about that....if you'll be so kind as to read my post, you'll learn that while I tried sport climbing a couple of times many years ago, these days you won't see me carrying a rack of quick draws if we ever meet at Index.

It's interesting that as soon as I submitted my previous post, I noticed a new response from Geek the Geek, and sure enough, he/she brought up the 12-point crampon history. Predictable.

How true. But here's another MisterE comment: That statement is similarly hollow. Blind acceptance of change is no better than knee-jerk opposition to change. Those who voice opposition to sport climbing on this website make every attempt to convey what they see as specific problems with this approach to rock climbing. The proponents generally reply with the assertion that our opposition is founded psychologically in a resistance to anything new and different. Inevitably, somebody parrots the cliché about how adding front points to crampons was once seen as "cheating" and opposed by "traditionalists", suggesting that: (1) sport climbing is no more harmful than putting two extra holes in the ice and (2) opposition to sport climbing is similarly ridiculous and motivated by a fear of ANYTHING new. Actually, sport climbing isn't that new when compared to the number of decades that Americans have been pursuing rock climbing per se. In fact, when I got interested in climbing in the mid 1980's, sport climbing was already available to anybody who wanted to drive down to Bend. I didn't have any traditions to protect in my approach to climbing...I was just starting out. I read some magazine editorials and interviews and talked to some folks in both camps, and then I made up my mind. What would be iteresting would be your reaction if the future of rock climbing changes to a more ethically pure approach, with sport climbing no longer viewed as acceptable. How would you, Mr. "E", react to such change? Would you whole-heartedly embrace it, as a consequence of its trendiness? Mr. Rylan More, you probably have the wrong person in mind. I went down to Smith a handful of times to check it out, to see what all of the fuss was about, but I probably haven't been there in 14 years. Yes, I clipped up a few routes (even flashed an 11d with a bowline on a coil for a harness), but I soon decided Smith Rock and sport climbing weren't where it's at. Call me a hypocrite if you wish, but I'm sure if I'd never tried sport climbing, then you'd insist that I don't have any basis for my opposition to it. Also, Raindawg is correct. I’m not promoting the introduction of via ferrata to the Cascades. Sorry you misunderstood my intent.

"On Saturday December 9th, Backcountry Gear will be hosting long-time Smith local Mike Volk's video presentation of his documentary "Smith Rock 1986: The Birth of U.S. Sport Climbing." Witness the explosion of Sport Climbing at Smith Rock in the mid 1980s." What's the occasion? A celebration of the castration of America's proud rock climbing traditions? What's being documented? The history of our slide down the slippery slope to climbing without courage? The abandon of the "leave no trace" ethic in favor of manufactured bolt trails? The narcissism of pretending to climb grades that you can't really handle without an obnoxious, rap-placed bolt every six feet? Bad hair styles, lycra and the invitation of multitudes of gumbies who would rather alter the vertical environment than seek a true adventure? Join me in missing this one.

Wasn't he 2 for 3? But the tackle and forced turnover were stupendous. I can't believe they have a winning record when you watch that offense and when you consider all of the injuries. Now they're without a fullback (they have no back-up). St. Louis and Frisco lost today so with any luck we'll be back in post-season play. Winning in Denver was a big deal.

Real men appreciate football. But you're welcome to hijack this thread and talk about bowline knots or Gri-Gri belays.

link Coco's girl is increasing her cross section.

A couple of relevant quotes from my "guitar hero", Frank Zappa: Also, from his keynote address to the 1984 American Society of University Composers: Why does today's music seem to be performed by talentless and anonymous artists? Because today's audience demands nothing more.

Can't believe this didn't come to mind earlier: Alley-Oop Chimney at Peshastin. Go climb it, you'll see what I mean.

Oregon lost to Arizona (laughs) and WSU! Anyway, enjoy the "success" of Oregon because I think UW is turning the corner to PAC-10 domination, like the old days when playing Oregon/Oregon State had the feel of a scrimmage with some junior college.

Bow Down to Washington, Bow Down to Washington. Mighty are the men who wear the Purple and the Gold, Joyfully we welcome them within the Victor's fold. We will carve our name in the Hall of Fame, To preserve the memory of our Devotion. Chorus So, heaven help the foes of Washington, They're trembling at the feet of mighty Washington. Our boys are there with bells, Their fighting blood excells, It's harder to push them over the lines than pass the Dardanelles. So Victory's the cry of Washington Our leather lungs together with a Rah! Rah! Rah! And o'er the land, the loyal band** Will sing the glory of Washington forever!

Climb now, spray later (I think you've got the sequence bass-ackwards). Anyway, regarding the country music lyrics (lost my job, lost my home, lost my dog, lost my girl, etc.): you still have your life, but if you carry out your plans, this could change. What girl, job, dog, etc., is worth your life? The average guy will experience many jobs, many homes......and many bitches. One day, all of this will come together for you and you'll be glad you didn't expire in some dumb-ass storm on some dumb-ass mountain. Life is a shit sandwich. Eat it or starve.

In that case I will: (1) Appear for a photo-op in a full-body pink lycra action jump suit. (2) Belay OffWhitey with a Gri-Gri. (3) Satisfy Dru's girl (I realize I'm making a gender assumption) with some bon-a-fide (i.e. 'merican) Liebewurst.

I'll come check out your crag under one condition. If I can pull the moves without the plastic holds, you will remove them.

I've seen enough. Let's trade Hasselback and Alexander and bring in some offensive-line talent. I think we could get it done without those guys.

Check out what was lounging on the sunny side of my place Saturday. I'd never seen one in my neighborhood.

Thanks for respecting the stone. BTW, is that the cliff where you bolted on some plastic holds in a display of your unique ability to allow for nuance in climbing ethics?

How about the first crux on Iron Horse? I think it's supposed to be 5.11d and that isn't moderate by my standards. But there is a way to do that move that feels like 5.10b/c. From a right hand undercling, just reach up and stick your middle bird finger in that hole. Feels unlikely until you step up left and then stem off the right foot and right palm. Stand up and grab the bucket. Kinderspiel. The second crux is a shade harder.

Why do you want one of those darn things?