pope

DougT suggests the addition of a stout bolt is superfluous (with adequate modern nut protection) and that the museum-piece relic bolt offered little more than a history lesson (only a fool would rely on it per se). I completely agree with DougT that the placement of a modern bolt fundamentally changes the nature of this pitch, providing a care-free, dumbed-down ascent in which the possibility of falling off presents zero penalty. This is one of the more pathetic trends in rock climbing. Every contribution to this thread reverberates with the same message....."We want perfectly solid gear, we want to be able to fall off the crux whether we're capable of 5.7 or 5.11 and we're enthusiastic about bolting next to a protectable crack in order to accomodate our desires." Why is there missing a single response where somebody with any sense of adventure and aesthetics says, "DougT, I'm inspired by your post and I'm going to try the route without the bolt. It certainly would be more aesthetic to use skill and boldness to protect this route than clipping yet another bolt."? It's been a couple of years since I climbed this pitch, but if my memory is correct, the hardest move is the mantle onto a triangular shelf above the thin crack. Prior to this move, while one hangs from a monkey grip on this generous shelf, one may place superior nut protection in the crack behind the shelf, possibly more secure and certainly more aesthetic than the bolt about which DougT voices concern.

Let's see a couple of Peter Puget photos....one from back in the day (fit and trim "rock icon", scrubbin' new lines at Index), and a contemporary photo...displayin' all that Subway-poster-child potential. Yo.

Good TR. Nice job "toughing it out" in wild conditions.

Good stuff! Thanks for posting.

Apparently some can't comprehend the difference between drilling new bolts and simply climbing routes with bolts already in place. "No snowflake in avalanche ever admits responsibility." Let me translate, maya babushka: clipping bolts is voting "Yes!" for sport climbing.

you have got to be the world's biggest douchebag...get a life, you retard...BOO! Let's face it, the new Mountaineers can be horribly confusing, offering all sorts of contradictory information: Leave No Trace Trainer Courses The Leave No Trace Trainer Courses provide participants with innovative teaching skills to educate a wide range of students on best practices for low-impact recreation. Participants get a comprehensive overview of Leave No Trace through direct, in-field experience during the two-day overnight course in an outdoor setting. The course covers the principles, application, and ethics of Leave No Trace and includes techniques for educating others. Participants learn to effectively educate their friends, family, and community about Leave No Trace, as well as lead Awareness Workshops. Sport Climbing Course, 2010 Revised November 15, 2009 Course code: TBA Class size minimum: 2 Class size maximum: 10 Non-members allowed enrollment: No Member cost: $100.00 The Sport Climbing Course, is a program of field instruction designed to teach the fundamental skills required to safely lead on sport (bolted) routes. Instruction includes clipping, anchors, rappelling, and climbing techniques. The course is suggested for gym climbers and scramblers who want to give rock climbing a try and Basic Grads who want to further develop their rock skills and learn to lead. PREREQUISITES: Applicants must know how to belay. The following proof will be accepted: A Belay Card certificate from any Climbing Gym, a certificate of graduation from the Basic Climbing Course, equivalency status, or have at least passed the Final Exam. REQUIRED EQUIPMENT: Six quickdraws and /or, slings, clothing, pack, helmet, carabiners, a rope and a variety of other gear. ELIGIBILITY: The course is open to any person who can pass a belay exam at any climbing gym. Apparently all one needs is to pass a belay test at the local climbing bym, plus six quick-draws and he can learn to leave "no trace" by clipping up a rap-placed bolt trail? HELP! I'm so confused!

"Solving this equation requires only freshman-level college calculus. Why, there must be dozens of people in this country who can do that!"

Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or10 months a year! It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit! We can get that for less than minimum wage. That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan-- that equals 6 1/2 hours). Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations. LET'S SEE.... That's $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries). What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year. Wait a minute -- there's something wrong here! There sure is! The average teacher's salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student--a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!

Actually, there's another option, when wages offered together with prevailing working conditions fail to attract qualified candidates. The state can/does hire poorly qualified candidates. Not long ago, a local school district posted three teaching positions for high-school mathematics. Precisely three applied, and three were hired. Each had earned a bachelor’s degree, not one in mathematics. Not one was even minimally qualified according to state standards to teach secondary mathematics. In fact, not one was licensed by the state to teach. Yet they were hired. I guess they had a pulse and a temperature, and via some “emergency” clause, they joined the force, with the understanding they would begin work on certification. One guy made it beyond the first year. Friday at lunch some members of his department explained to him how to solve the equation log(10^x)=3. I agree with the theory….let the free market (the labor market) dictate wages. If only that were the way it worked, I’d probably be making double my salary. Then I could give up my second job, and I probably wouldn’t have to pay a health care premium for my family equal to almost half my mortgage.

Ausgezeichnet!

Answer the question, jack-donkey!

"Siege climb in progress" means that anybody who wishes to climb the route is given only two options. He can either trust the gear of somebody he doesn't know, or he can wait six months until the "free climbers" have moved on. What's worse, monopolizing a route on public land or removing the gear with the intent of keeping it? But, this is sport climbing at Smith Rock. Ain't it wonderful?

Looooooooozer!

Beneath the Sands of Egypt. Available now. Read my copy in two days. Gets rave reviews including my own. And it has climbing adventures in exotic locations.

Given that these threads are usually started by either Raindawg or you in an insulting manner, are you asking me to delete the entire thread? This isn't a JOB, since I don't get paid, and babysitting your pet rant is not really what I want to do for hours a day, every day. Your rants are not an asset to the site. You want custom service? PAY ME A DECENT WAGE. I’d be happy to moderate a forum on climbing ethics and style. I’ll work for free. How refreshing would it be to discuss one of the most important issues of modern climbing in a spray-free forum? There is no lack of interest in the topic….I suspect such a forum would generate plenty of traffic, pleasing both site owners and sponsors. I also think we’d hear from a greater number of participants representing a broad spectrum of attitudes in a forum where spray is not tolerated.

Hi Jon. Check your PM's. I sent you a copy of my request to Dru to remove my name. Decide for yourself whether I had been rude or confrontational. I don't think he's being truthful.

Honestly, I cut and pasted this quote straight from my PM's. Since I happen to believe in this dictate, and since its source is a man even more important than OW....even more important than MattP himself....I'm going to protect his identity.

"People have a right to stay anonymous [on cc.com]...." Who said this?

This topic is in SPRAY, And was started in SPRAY... You're the smart one, aren't you?

Thread drift! Moderators, move this to SPRAY at once! Listen, if one thing is obvious, it is the pervasion of ADD among recent contributors to this thread. Let's stay on topic here.....which is....if I remember, the notion that one should not make a statement on a controversial topic (like grid-bolting on Mt. Garfield) w/o disclosing his/her identity. There is no small number of reasons why contributors to these discussions wish to remain at large, not the least of which is that foul-mouthed guys like Choda Boy and Dick Head inevitably degrade our high-brow discourse to locker-room talk. The quality of these exchanges is not something with which many of us wish to have our real names associated. It’s nothing less than amusing that guys anointed with the powers of moderation (OWhite, for example) suggest that contributors such as I wouldn’t stand behind our statements if only the general readership were aware of our real identities. Joke. In the words of one of my true heroes, not to mention one of the founders of this website, “People have a right to stay anonymous, I guess Matt doesn't agree. I'll make sure your name is erased that Dru posted so you can reconsider.” This is a promise made to me when I asked …..Gee, this is a long story. Once upon a time, some prick from a third-world country (think it was Canada) started throwing my name around in the Alpine Lakes forum. I asked MattP (you know the guy……he who once was given the prestigious Alpine Buddy award by me and Dwayner) to “correct the problem”. He said, something to the effect that I shouldn’t expect him to do his job as moderator. So, I went straight to the top, asking one of the site’s owners to help “correct the problem”. He promised to help. I’m still waiting. Although he did offer some kind of philosophical statement….. see the quote above. Where am I going with this? Oh yes, a challenge……to the moderators of this site, many who claim to be “liberals”…….you know, vanguards of the free exchange of ideas, protectors of the environment, champions of minorities, etc. Next time a controversial topic surfaces (for example, fixed-anchor ethics), instead of immediately demoting the topic to spray, DO YOUR JOB! Please cleanse the exchanges of all insults, locker-room talk, personal attacks, ridiculous analogies, etc. When (and if) this happens, I’ll be happy to attach my full name to my comments.

Skinny Puppy, DT, WY.

Well said, my thoughts exactly. So many inspirational new routes have gone up this last couple years. Want to make your point? Do it the old fashoned way. Here, let me try: Until you've cut down an old-growth cedar tree in a national park, until you've invested the enormous amount of energy and vision required to create a picnic table from that tree, and until you've busted your ass hauling that picnic table up from tree line and carefully placed it in an appropriate alpine meadow, "....you simply don't get a voice in the discussion because you have no clue what your [sic] talking about. Seriously, it will change your perspective on the conversation."

Please don't pee all over this inspirational thread with what is obviously a satement of your predisposition.

And why's that? The cute girl? Or the fact that he's at Squamish and nowhere close to Portland?

What's truly splendid is a pipe-load of Cavendish followed by a shot of espresso. I love espresso shots, but somehow their caramelly goodness becomes that much more acute when the mouth is appropriately prepared.