ryland_moore

Speaking of finding stuff, you can go to the Trip Reports page and look up North Face Mount Hood Routes to see previous parties climbing the route (there are several variations). You will also note that the dates of the climbs for this route are typically in the fall winter or early spring. Here is the link: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/tripreports/ Type in Location: Hood Route: North Face Location: Oregon Cascades Photos: your choice, but the ones with photos are pretty sweet

This is a normal time of year to ascend this route. I would never do this route anytime between March and end of September or early October. At some point the route does become very avy prone from the windload above, so it is a timing issue every year. In 2004/2005 (drought year), this route could have been done well into December or early January or even February. This past year, they were right on the verge of it going out of shape (not known before they astarted their climb as it only went out of shape when the recent storms hit), but who knows, the route may come back in depending on precip and compaction of current snow? It just depends, but typically this route is best climbed when most people are not on the mountain...

Beacons are not standard climbing gear, but I carry one on almost every winter trip, whether skiing or not and usually my partners do as well. I started doing this after reading several reports in ANAM aboutr people being buried on approaches to ice climbs and of course, who could forget the Alex Lowe tragedy, where conditions were perfect down low but the release occurred over 1,000' above where slides were natural. I don't carry one past the spring or early into the fall, so I guess I only use one about 15-20% of the total time I am out in the bc in a given year. Regardless, you and your partner still need to know how to use one properly and efficiently, and they should not be used as a crutch for moving out onto loaded slopes or in high avy conditions, as it was noted in a previous post, there are no guarantees that you would live through a slide...

Origami sounds like some rednecks I used to run across in the woods at Red River Gorge and New River Gorge! Ex - miltary gone crazy and not taking his meds thinks he knows what is going on. He probably watched too much of the live coverage of this rescue and when he saw the Blackhawks he began to have flashbacks from 'Nam.....so sad... Matt, please lock this thread. We have posters who are asking the same questions over and over that have been answered many pages back repeatedly. The thread served its purpose and now it needs to end. I tried to be patient with my posts and answering newbies that posed legitimate questions about climbing, but Origami's and others posts have nothing to do wit hthe intent of the original thread discussion through the first 40 pages or so. You have asked nicely, and now it should come to an end. It still provides quality information. Please lock it. Keep the faith and stay strong out there tomorrow. We already have one casualty and lets keep it that way. Thanks again to PMR, HRCR, and the miltary and sherriff's Depts. LH - Cragging means the same as climbing. A crag generally refers to a cliff or rock face.

This is very sad news I have to say unlike Bone, I was surprised to hear that the climber was found deceased. I held out hope for the climber and I still hold out hope for the other two. Ivan, I would be more than happy to share a rope up there with you in the foreseeable future. Keep the families and friends of the climbers in your prayers while the search continues..........

I have read every post. You have not. Re-read my post and understand what I said. You are obviouslyt not a climber, so I will not waste any more time in explaining it to you exceot for this last bit of info. whioch has been covered for several pages earlier in this forum: You descend the S. side under most conditions and after climbing up most of the routes on Hood. The climbers original plan was to descend the S. side to Timberline to be picked up by friends. They left a note in their car that in case of an emergency they would descend Cooper Spur which is a ridge to the left of the N. Face and would return them back to their car where they left it at Cooper Spur ski area.

That was the plan on what route (S. Side)to descend if the climb went off without a hitch. They stated that in case of emergency, they would descend the Cooper Spur. Everyone would normally descend the S. Side to Timberline - that is the standard route to descend thr majority of routes on the mountain...

For all of the newbies or those just joining the conversation, PLESE RE-READ PREVIOUS POSTS. Most of you questions have already been answered. And no, East Coast hiker, they did not indicate S. Side would be their escape route in an emergency, they said they would descend the Cooper Spur directly beside the North Face. As for leaving gear, I think Bone puts it clearly. That two of the climbers who left for help last Saturday/Sunday may have left some of their ice tools (ice tools are not ice axes). Ice tools are used on steeper terrain, like what you would expect ice climbers to use. They are short as well. Ice axes are longer and do not have a very angled head. This is used on less steep terrain and when climbing general glaciers not over 45-50 degrees. They are longer so you don't have to bend over to place the axe point in the snow. If the other two climbers left theri technical ice tools in the cave, That would indicate to me that they were heading over to the SOuth side to descend and just took their ice axes for the S. Side descent. Ice tools would be useless on the S. side as you cannot use them when descending low-angled terrain and you usally cannot self arrest with them because the pick angle so steep that it would jerk the ice tools out of your hands. Also, they did not indicate that there was a pack in the cave. So the shovel, pack, and everything else is gone from the cave but just a rope, sleeping bag, and ice tools? You would not need a rope to descend the south side with the amount of snow out there. There is one burgschrund, but it is definitely closed up this late in the year. I'd say they moved either to rescue themselves or to move the cave due to poor position during the storm. Thery are out there, just have to find them.....

Ice Ninja, this is possible that they may have been able to get over to the south side, but the actual descent down the S. side isn't as simple as geting up to the top of the North Face and dropping over the other side. Once up to the high point of the N. Face, depending on which variation of the North Face you took (there are at least five official variations, maybe more)you would still have to head up and SE along asometimes knife-edge ridge to the summit, then head S/ SW down through a narrow area called the Pearly Gates and on down to the Hogsback. There are other variations to get down, but this would be the safest. Since none of these men had been up on Hood before and never ascended or descended the S. Side, it may have been too difficult to descend a route in a whiteout that they had no idea of where is started and coupled with the fact that they said in case of emergency we are going down the Cooper Spur and that they also knew the route as the climbed next to it all day Friday, they may have gone this way. Now that is assuming that the the two climbers who left for help could not see and it was whiteout conditions when they left the snow cave. If the weather was somewhat clear when they left, then they may have descended the south side and are either in a snow cave or headed down into Zig Zag canyon (the natural fall line) while trying to get to Timberline Lodge.

Thanks for that info. SFDukie.....

Thanks Mike! We should always remind ourselves that life will pass you by if your are not careful.These climbers are just doing the thing that makes their life worthwhile andn ot watching it past them by. ""It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out where the strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred with dust and sweat and blood. At best, he knows the triumph of high achievement; if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

Mrd and others, Let me try and explain it to you this way and see if it makes mores sense. We now know that they did bring some pretty solid gear with them for a short Mt. Hood trip. They had a stove, fuel, shovel, bivy sacks, at least half bags/down parkas and food. We do not know the quantities, but knowing what the weather forecast was last Wednesday when they left, I think they were fully prepared. Now, with that said, from reading your post it makes it sound like they should have been more prepared. I am not sure where you live, but weather reports out here can never be relied on fully and in many instances must be taken with a grain of salt especially with the large volcanic peaks around here where they can have isolated weather that is not witnessed even 5 miles away from the mountain itself (think lenticulars here) and therefore weather reports would not cover such localized systems. Being prepared is one thing, but this gets back to the light and fast vs. over-packing and placing the rest of the climbing team in danger issue. Is it a gamble? Some may think so. But the way your post sounds you would expect them to have 10 days of food and fuel for a one day climb. When the weather is stellar and the climbing doesn't take more than 2 days away from the car if all goes well, then taking a bunch of gear may actually hinder a team more than going "fast and light". If I may relate this to something most people would understand, what you are telling climbers to do would be the same thing as me saying that you should wear a bearproof suit every time you go on a hike in the woods because you maybe attacked by a bear. Or every time you go swimming in the ocean, you need to wear sharkproof chainmail, because you maybe attacked by a shark. I do not know this for fact, but looking at Fugedaboudit's previous post and the detail he went to gather information, I guarantee you they were looking at the weather. It also sounds like their travel days were somewhat flexible on when they would come out (I do not know this or have not seen any info. on this) because Fuggedaboudit was talking of coming out a little earlier in December, I believe, and because of the Hwy 35 closure and flooding issues from the Nov. rains, the highway was not going to be open until the Saturday before they started the climb. SO, I bet they were watching all of the weather reports so that they did not fly out here to be socked in by weather. I will say this again. I do not see anything apparent, from a climber's perspective that they did wrong, with the information we have. I would say that it is just dumb luck. As if you or I were walking down the street and were hit by a falling tree. It is not like they started their climb in stormy conditions. They should have been up and off the hill before the storms even hit. And the really bad storms did not come until a week after they started their two-day climb. I will also note that their really were not any weather rports of really bad storms until Friday - two days after they set out on the climb. All climbers should be prepared, and although bad weather can hit at any time, climber's will minimize risk at all costs and take the essentials and then figure out a way to make do if things go bad, which is rare. Climbers are not some risky thrill-seekers. I look at what skateboarders, kite boarders, steep creek kayakers, and paragliders do and think they are crazy. I also think people who weave in and out of traffic are crazy too. Bottom line is that the media does sensationalize climbing accidents, but in reality they happen few and far between when compared to other recreational pursuits.

O.K. since there are a lot of "newbies" looking in with some posting who do not know the terminology and are being disrespectful, without, I hope, intending to be, here are a few things for those who have not read every single post from this forum. The climbers supposedly headed up the NF. The NF above the Elliot glacier is a technical climb that requires frozen conditions. Mt. Hood is a volcano with a lot of choss (read loose unconsolidated rock). You must climb when this route is frozen which is pretty much the late fall through the early spring. Any other time is too dangerous to climb this route, generally. The climbers seem to have experience in other arenas and they were not hikers. Please do not refer to them as hikers - they are climbers or mountaineers (in this instance). The weather last week, when they set off seemed like prime conditions to do this route. Climbing in "alpine style" also known as "light and fast" does not mean that they are not prepared. It is a climbing term used to distinguish that from an expedition style climb where you ferry loads up the mountain for a long time with a lot of gear. Think Denali or the Himalayas generally. This means that they were not carrying a ton of gear that would slow them down and less to carry. This does not mean that they were not prepared for the elements. I have witnessed guys who forgo toothbrush, place holes in their spoons and buy only the lightest gear to save a mere ounces on climbs and they do this without leaving behind some form of the "10 essentials" (Google this list if you don't know them) To climb the North face requires rope, pro (protection) including ice screws, pickets (long aluminum bars hammered into snow as anchors), and even rock pro (placing gear in cracks that will hopefully stop a fall). They also carried crampons (12 point metal spikes strapped to boots to climb ice) and ice tools (ice axes that are shorter and more angled picks to bight into the ice and help them climb). Nikko stated on a post a few weeks ago when trying to obtain beta (climber's term for information about a route)that he would be carrying a bivy sack and half bag (bivy sack is a nylon, waterproof shell that can be used in emergencies to provide shelter from the elements (think mini tent without poles that weighs very little or a shell for your sleeping bag) It also adds about 10-15 degrees of warmth. So if you have a half bag (half sleeping bag or a down parka) combined with a bivy sack, you can be quite warm and stay dry plus decrease weight. They were carrying fuel and stove for melting water and had food (quantity not known). Snow caves are amazing shelters and in a storm if I had to choose between a snow cave or the strongest 4 season mountaineering tent, I would choose a snow cave. If built correctly, they are very strong and stable. It can be quite balmy inside with temps around 35-45 degrees F and will totally protect you from the wind and snow. You must maintain an opening (small) so that carbon monoxide can escape and get fresh air. Your main entrance opening needs to be below the area you reside inside to protect from the elements. Also remember that hot air rises. You can also live in a snow cave for along time. The rescuers are the best around and are doing everything they can up there. It is easy to armchair quarterback things from behind your computer while sipping on your late by the fire, but most people would not last 5 minutes in the conditions these rescuers have been in for days, so please refrain from questioning their abilities. The Cooper Spur (a ridge to the left of the North Face) is a popular ascent and descent route of Mt. Hood. It is a long ridge that is a really fun climb without too many technical dificulties. However, there have been several accidents on this route as many people descending it have fallen near the top where it is steep and do not stop until they hit the Elliot glacier 2,000' below. This is due to unstable snow slopes where people wearing crampons slip on wet/loose snow or their crampons ball up (climbing term where snow builds up between the teeth of the crampons and the points of the crampons no longer have contact with the snow surface - like walking in mud where after a few steps you have 4 inches of mud on the bottom of your shoes and you are slipping everywhere) This happens typically when wet snow collects under the crampons or the snow has warmed and when it is sunny this can happen. Unlikely with the type of snow we have here. The Cooper Spur is a good descent option if you had to. Yes, it is steep, but really not that bad once lower on the ridge. Avalanche is a concern on this route, however. There is another descent option if looking at the NF on the right side called the Sunshine Route - to the right of the Elliot headwall and North Face. This route is even less technical than the Cooper Spur (also debateable) and maybe more comparable to the South Side but with route-finsing issues and glaciers and crevasses. However, it can be a difficult route to navigate on the upper portion. It does not have any glaciers on the upper section and is straight forward once lower if the route is in good condition. Avalanches are dangerous. The conditions on the mountain now are that a lot of snow has fallen over the last week. It fell on top of another layer of snow that was exposed to sun for several days and that surface went through what is called a melt/refreeze cycle and made the surface very slippery. Now, with the new snow on top of that, it can slide off the slippery surface below creating what is called a slab avalanche. If the upper layer is heavy enough, it can slide naturally and is the type of condiitons the rescuers are facing now. This is dangerous for the rescuers because they could be ascending a stable slope only to have a naturally triggered slid occur 1,000' above them and still kill or injure rescuers. Last week's weather was perfect, so questioning why any climber would go out in this weather is misfounded. If all had gone to plan, then the climbers would have been down and away from the mountain before the bad weather hit. Mountain locator units are available, but in my 15 years of climbing, I have never met or climbed with anyone using one. In the climbing community, they are sometimes called "body locator units" because, to my knowledge, they have not been used successfully in a rescue of a climber on a mountain who was still alive. Maybe I need some more education in this matter. Climbing is inherently dangerous, but so is driving in rush-hour traffic. The cost of rescue for climbers in minscule compared with the cost of rescue for others like snow mobilers, hunters, hikers, and fisherman. I am sure there are other questions from non-climbers out there. Many of them have been answered in previous posts, so if you are a non-climber or have not been following this entire forum, pleae read all posts and I bet your questions have already been answered. Keep hope alive. People can survive in snow caves for a loooong time. In summary, it does not appear from a climber's perspective, that these climbers did anything wrong per say in climbing when they did. It blew me away that they left as much information as they did about their intended route. I do not do this myself to the degree that they did and may reconsider on future climbs. They seem well within their abilities, chose a route in prime condition and right time of year, and it seems nothing more than dumb luck that one of the climbers may have been injured coupled by the impending storm that was coming in. And living in Portland, was not made a big deal about by the news or media until late Friday evening (when the climbers were on route and supposed to be descending.)Remember, they left their car on Wednesday, before any weather reports were out that a major wind storm dumping feet of sanow would hit the following week. Thanks again to Alasdair, Iain and the others (PMR, Crag Rats, etc.) for putting their lives on hold in hopes of bringing back those climbers to their loved ones so that their lives can continue. Also, thanks for all of the regular climbers/posters who just read through that long newbie post. If y'all have anything else to add about basics that would help newbies better understand the terminlogy, please feel free to add anything I left out.

As a true southerner who was weened on bourbon, I would have to say that I like a lot of them, and it depends on what I am drinking. if I am drinking a sterotypical bourbon and ginger or mint julep, then it is fine to just use Maker's Mark. I would never rink Maker's Mark neat. If I want something light but flavorful them a George Dickel or Knob Creek is also very good. If you want to know what I will drink neat or just one cube, then I typically go for Bookers or Blanton's (single barrel - my favorite). Like a fine wine, Bourbon can really be enjoyed and paired for the occasion. Try looking around to see if there are any bourbon tasting clinics going on to find out what you really like. As long as you don't mix a good bourbon with anything, then you are fine. Kinda like drenching a high quality cut of meat with A-1. Most bourbons are great for mixing including Maker's Mark. One of my favorite mixers, and one definitely not meant to drink neat, unless taking shota and not out of college, is Evan Williams Green label. it is cheap and still has a decent taste. Most of all, enjoy it!

RuMr, I don't think it is Dan the Man becasue that guy hates me after I critisized him about him bashing Chad Kellogg's speed ascents. But who knows, we all know Dan has "multiple personalities"! Hey W, tell Nice Guy Bill I said hello! Didn't know you moved to Talkeetna!

Well I know two posters you'd get along with! Look up Dwayner (Raindawg is another avatar) and Pope! ANyway, there are climbers of all types on this site. Newbs to people like Beckey and Joe Josephson and other hardcores post on this site and you would never know who you are talking to. Sportos to hard-core trad. Those that only alpine and those that only TR. You get the whole lot and it makes it more interesting and you get to hear about some amzing climbs. The best thing is that it brings all of us, no matter what our climbing level or ability, together in situations such as this. The power of the internet, I guess. But don't write it off so quickly, read the trip reports sections, especially in better weather, and think before you post, because although I knew what you were trying to ask, it did come off a little holier than thou. I know those weren't your intentions, but we all know how sending stuff via internet is harder to express than in person. I bet if you met griz and DeChristo, you'd have a great day out climbing with them. Come to a rope up at Smith and Leavenworth and see if that changes your opinion about these guys/gals - damn, maybe I should be in Cafe Sensitivo? Don't worry, I had to go through it as well when I first started coming here. People thought I was in my 50's because I came off as a crotchety old fart, when in reality I was in my mid-20s!

Jon, I think most of the guys posting do know what they are talking about, they are just also experts at Spray sometimes as well. Unfortunately you were indoctrinated into the CC.com community. Sorry it had to be on such a serious note. Maybe they will go easy on ya next time. As for rock quality on Denali, yeah that was a sad freak accident, but I'll take loose granite over volcanic choss/mud any day! Keep the climbers in your prayers tonight. I am sitting out here in Pullman right now for work and the winds have been howling so bad. Flying out here today was a somber moment as I gazed over at hood flying up the Gorge and seeing a big cloud bank over Hood. Not a defined lenticular like you see when you have clear weather around it but very eerie looking as if the mountain looked like a big hill whcih was really all cloud.....weird...

Jon, we are all trying to think of ways to get these guys off the mountain. A lot off people from here would try and lend a hand and volunteer. You may know what it is like in a heavy storm on Denali just as many of us do, but going up on Hood right now, in my opinion, is as close to a death wish as I can think of. 7,000' may be raining and 35 F, but you are forgetting what the windchill factor would be (does not have an effect on precip., remember). At 80 mph sustained (which is what they are calling for today and tomorrow) equates to around 10 F with windchill. Assuming that temps drop an average of 10 degrees/1,000' and you are looking at -5F on the summit which equates to -43 F with windchill on the summit. I am not denying your claims, but you cannot talk to someone in 80 mph winds. You cannot yell to them right next to you, let alone hear someone else with a bull horn or such. Even the most experienced climbers who know Hood like the back of their hands would have no idea if they were about to walk of the summit ridge in a white out due to the snow conditions and how cornices have built up over the last week. The summit ridge could be a lot larger from leeward loading or the cornices could have naturally collapsed. The bottom line is, I think it is suicide, no matter what the temps are. Coupled with the high avy conditions, it doesn't matter what route you take when there are natural avis going off everywhere. The S. Side naturally slides in several places. Would you be willing to walk on loaded slopes in a whiteout and hearing natural slides all around you in 80 mph winds? I don't know a single person who would be willing to risk so much and I doubt the families of the missing climbers would want others to potentially die trying to find their loved ones. The fact of the matter is that it is simply too dangerous to go up there when chances are so slim of finding anything and chances are so great for another accident to occur. I am usually of your same mentality in that desperate times calls for desperate measures, but unfortunately, I feel that what you propose is beyond desperate and does venture into the realm of craziness. Keep 'em coming though and keep the climbers and all who are helping in your prayers. As for age, I wouldn't use that as a judgement. Most of the guys on PMR I know are in their late 20s to late 30s and all are super strong climbers, backcountry skiers, and have climbed much more technical routes than the West Butt. Since you have never been on the N. Side, picture the steepest section of the W, Butt between 14 and 16k, but in a white out with some rock that is not solid like on Denali and is 2-3 times steeper (around 80 degrees in some steps and averages 55 degrees, with spindrift aqnd natural avis coming down from 2,000 ft above and tell me if they are comparable. I am sorry. I have been on both and they are not.....

Let us not forget Tomaz Humar's survival on the Rupal Face last year after 6 days in a snow cave......Let's pray that a similar outcome appears.....

DH, being that you are not from around here, you wouldn't have known that the weather was stellar last week in oregon when they left, that the forecast was not going to turn bad until mid-late Saturday, after their set time to return. Are you telling me that you don't go out to climb if bad weather is expected several days after your expected return time? Or do you always believe what a weather forecast tells you? if so, then I guess you don't get out much. Too bad, because you are missing out....

Hey Tex! How's the desert? Tex, I don't think the media is covering this in an informed manner (read climber's knowledge) and they probably do not have all the details down, like we all know usually happens from previous experience. I think what the spokesman was trying to get across from the interview, was that they were well prepared and had probably stocked up on some last minute items like you or I would before a weekend in the Cascades. Maybe that the spokesman relates going to REi as buying equipment, when we as climbers all know that that is probably not the case, unless someone forgot to pack something or lost something in transit. It sounds like they have suffiencient experience to climb the NF routes on Hood from their climbing resumes under normal late fall conditions. But I am just speculating from the climbs and routes they have been reported as climbing (Liberty Ridge was the only specific route given ) all the rest were large mountains but there is a huge difference between summitting Denali via the West Butt vs. the Cassin. That information was not given. Plus, we all know how spinddrift and high winds can turn a fun alpine route into a miserable trap fast. I don't think we will know the full story until they are down and able to recount what happened. I pray that we will be afforded this opportunity. Sending warm thoughts on this miserable night...

I don't think that the spokesman for the family is a climber after seeing him on the news tonight nor do I think he is implying that because they have good equipment, they are good climbers. The wind is howling in North Portland right now as I watch a huge doug fir in my backyard. I can only imagine what the winds are like up high. I pray that the snow cave holds up in this storm and that they are snug and safe, they keep the airway open, and they return to solid ground tomorrow. It is easy to armchair quarterback situations like these, but I myself was talking to friends about heading up Saturday morning for a ski descent down the Wy'East route and we bailed due to weather. Could have easily been anyone of us up there, especially with how good conditions were late last week and before the weekend. The Cascades do and always will humble me. Cluck, Iain and others of PMR and HRCR, plus all the guys at the sherriff's offices, thanks for all of your hard work and putting your lives at risk to save others. Godspeed.

Sounds like it is not your grip strength but your grip endurance right? Try similar exercises that focus on endurance. it is difficult to try not to overgrip tools, especially if you have l ashes to back you up, but to build up your grip endurance I would hang on your tools without feet touching, when you start getting pumped, try shaking out just like you would on rock and rotate focusing on keeping your weight on your frame. As you continue to get more ad more pumped from the grip, add a toe touch but trying to eep as much of your weight on your hands and bone frame, do this until failure. Then wait 30 secs. and do it again. Track how long you hang each time and chart it daily. Try to relx when doing this and see how loosely you can grip your axes without slipping. This of course is easier said then done while actually on the sharp end 20 ft. above your last screw, but if you have everything else down and are solid on ice, this would be the next thing. I must let you know that I am no expert and cannot lead over WI4, but have improved my grip strength dramatically this way both for ice climbing and a similar workout for improving grip on slopers.....

Is he 45 and from Corvallis? If so, there were some small blurbs in the Albany paper yesterday about a suicidal man there.....Bummer if it is him.

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