On losses, regulations, and free will.

[Buckaroo]

 

So you are driving a friggin car, on a paved road, use electricity created from dammed rivers or cole, but you are worrying about impact of a few bolts? Sure, I try to avoid shitting on every ledge, or leaving plastic from Gu packages, but fuck sakes let's keep things in some logical perspective.

And let's not forget that initial poster wrote it as another cheap shot, shitty-self righteous jab after Dean Potter death.

 

I was unaware of the specifics "impact of a few bolts", and was talking more in general terms. Each person should do their best to minimize their individual impact. From driving a more economical car, or even a hybrid, to minimizing waste, to donating to environmental causes, and or volunteering.

 

I think in the big picture Potter was no doubt a positive force but had minor disagreement with the impact of some of the things he did (mainly the use of helicopters). I don't blame him for anything, and think any climber can get caught up in the moment and not think about the impact. Just think that if he'd been a little bit more informed he might have done some things just a little bit differently. And then when you use "some logical perspective" and compare him to someone like BP's Tony Haward then Dean's detrimental impact is virtually near zero.

 

 

[Buckaroo]

Minimizing impact as much as practically possible would eliminate climbing. There really is no practical requirement for any of us to climb anything. We can get everything we need to "live" without leaving a city.

 

Once you determine that climbing is an acceptable activity and is justified then everything beyond that is very gray.

 

People have an impact on the environment. Mutual respect would go a lot further than some arbitrary lines drawn over what is acceptable and what is damaging.

 

Depends on your definition of practical.

 

And just because you don't draw a line in one place doesn't mean you can't draw it in another non-arbitrary place.

 

And how is mutual respect going to accomplish anything if there aren't any lines?

[Jason4]

 

Depends on your definition of practical.

 

And just because you don't draw a line in one place doesn't mean you can't draw it in another non-arbitrary place.

 

The non-arbitrary place to draw a line would be no climbing. No sky diving. No BASE jumping. No snowboarding. No activities just for fun. Stop doing things that aren't for the benefit of the entire planet. Spend your free time carefully pulling weeds to ensure the maximum productivity of your organic garden and share some with your neighbor that is too old to kneel and pull weeds. Move to Portlandia, drink milk from certified happy cows. That's not realistic.

 

Ok, we all agree we're going climbing (if not why are you on a climbing forum). Why are cams ok but bolts aren't? In the big picture they both take resources mined from the earth and shipped halfway around the world and to me that's a bigger impact than leaving a bolt halfway up a wall. They both have a limited lifespan and then they're garbage.

[Buckaroo]

The non-arbitrary place to draw a line would be no climbing. No sky diving. No BASE jumping. No snowboarding. No activities just for fun. Stop doing things that aren't for the benefit of the entire planet. Spend your free time carefully pulling weeds to ensure the maximum productivity of your organic garden and share some with your neighbor that is too old to kneel and pull weeds. Move to Portlandia, drink milk from certified happy cows. That's not realistic.

 

Ok, we all agree we're going climbing (if not why are you on a climbing forum). Why are cams ok but bolts aren't? In the big picture they both take resources mined from the earth and shipped halfway around the world and to me that's a bigger impact than leaving a bolt halfway up a wall. They both have a limited lifespan and then they're garbage.

 

FYI I've never argued against bolts from an impact point. My only argument is when bolts are employed where natural pro is readily available, and that's from a difficulty standpoint not environmental.

 

Pretty sure no one said "no climbing" was the line. And not sure how you extrapolate that that's the only non-arbitrary line that could possibly be drawn. Like you say it's a gray area but there's no reason lines can't be drawn there.

[JasonG]

So Buckaroo, non-arbitrary = a gray area? Interesting definition.

[Buckaroo]

So Buckaroo, non-arbitrary = a gray area? Interesting definition.

 

grey area = nuance

 

arbitrary = random

[Jason4]

Google tells me this:

ar·bi·trar·y

ˈärbəˌtrerē/

adjective

based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

 

I'll stick with my idea that climbing is based on personal whim. We no longer need to leave our communities to look for water/food/shelter on the other side of a mountain pass.

 

Sorry to imply that you argue for or against bolts Buckaroo, that's just a common line that is drawn (based on personal whim).

[Buckaroo]

Sure the choice to climb or not and how you climb is random

 

I'm saying the rules outlining it as relates to the environment don't have to be.

[JasonG]

I think many (most?) are drawn to climbing by the general lack of rules.

[ivan]

certainly aid climbers

[Jason4]

We can all reduce our impact, that's a good goal. I get irritated at people who choose to climb and then tell others that climb in a different style that they're wrong. It's easy to say one style is better than another but to say that one is right and another is wrong is whimsical.

[G-spotter]

should we even want to push kids to climb 5.15? seems like you need a raging eating disorder to make that grade

 

Sharma doesn't look like he has any trouble eating. Dude's arms are bigger than my shaved road biker legs.

[Choada_Boy]

Mea! Mea Culpa!!

[Figger_Eight]

Easy to pontificate climber impact on a global scale when it relates to using resources to do what we like to do.

 

However the real issues are STILL around climber behavior and how land managers agree or disagree with it.

 

If climbers go by the rule that "there shouldn't be any", I'd say we're in for a bit of a dim future.