Best knots

[fleblebleb]

I was going to post to the Best anchor thread but figured this might be fun on its own -

 

What do you guys figure is the quintessential set of knots to know and use when climbing?

 

Isn't there some big name climber who (proclaimed he) only knew 4 knots and that was enough for anything he needed to do? Was it Jim Donini? Maybe not, I don't remember at all and it doesn't really matter, but it's kind of a cool idea.

 

I can't really reduce anywhere close to four, but here is the set of knots I use - it's sufficient to solve the best anchor problem in many different ways.

 

Water knot - make a loop out of webbing

 

Fisherman knot - make a loop out of accessory cord, or connect two ropes

 

Euro death knot - connect two ropes for rappelling

 

Girth hitch - anchor a loop to tree/horn/pro

 

Slip knot - anchor tied webbing/cord tightly to tree/horn

 

Clove hitch - anchor rope to a biner

 

Figure 8 - tie in, equalize anchor with cordelette

 

Muenter hitch - belay/rap without device

 

Mule knot - tie off belay

 

Prusik knot - ascend rope, backup rappel

 

Did I miss something? Is something redundant?

 

[mattp]

Those are good knots and all, but what is a mule knot? And what is that slip knot all about?

 

My old friend who used to run a cross country ski area (Scottish Lakes) where lots of climbers used to hang out was always complaining about those god damned knots that the climbers always tied and which he couldn't untie. He was always begging us to do it the easy way with square knots and half hitches.

[jja]

this is a mule knot:

http://wac.icomm.ca/classes/climbingclass/knots/Mule.html

 

I didn't know what it was either, I've always done the wrap around the leg thing - but this seems way better.

[fleblebleb]

Actually, it's great for tieing off a Muenter hitch belay because it aligns the strands right.

 

The wrap-around-leg way keeps better friction on a regular belay with a device, but still requires attention. That web page is great, thanks for posting the URL! I hadn't thought of passing the bight through the biner.

 

Matt, start tieing an overhand on a looped piece of webbing or cord and you'll get a slip knot. A girth hitch works just as well almost all the time but with the slip knot you get a tight fit and only one strand goes around the tree/horn.

Edited January 5, 2003 by fleblebleb

[catbirdseat]

What about the bowline? A double bowline can be used to tie into the middle of a rope. A bowline on a bight can be used to equalize an anchor. Finally, a bowline on a coil can be used to tie into a rope if you have somehow forgot or lost your harness (an there is no other way to improvise a harness, such as with slings).

 

Before anyone brings it up. Yes, many, if not most people tie into the middle for glacier climbs using a figure eight and a locking biner. I prefer the bowline because it is has one less point of failure in the system. It ties directly throught the harness. The end is usually clipped off with a biner, just to guarantee the knot will not come untied.

[plexus]

Knots used most often: water knot, cinch knot, double fisherman, figure-8, clove hitch (the best thing for trad anchors). Now that I think about it, those are the only knots I use.

[klar404]

catbirdinhand, you gotta take the time to learn the butterfly. Not only is it a great tat' on a lovely lass's lass ( uuumm), But it is more functional as a tie in point mid-rope. It's more multidirectional than the mighty 8 . Check it.Anyone wanna a bushlight?

Edited January 5, 2003 by klar404

[fleblebleb]

I use the butterfly knot for tieing in to the middle, it's cool. Forgot about that.

 

I'd use a bowline to tow a car, it's a simple, elegant knot, easy to untie and works for all kinds of stuff, but I don't have any use for it when climbing. I might try that equalizing trick sometime.

 

 

[salbrecher]

Overhand knot is where it's at.

[Bill_Simpkins]

I like the self Equalizing figure 8 for a 2 or 3 point belay. Fast and strong way to equalize 2 or three anchors points.

The clove hitch and munter hitch are also favorites.

[Gary_Yngve]

I'd add the Klemheist knot to the list. Works with webbing too, though it's only one-directional.

[slothrop]

An autoblock is quicker to put on a rope than a prussik for rappel backup.

[Beck]

The Radium hitch is a nice one to know for crevasse rescue, or litter raise/lowers. essentially a munter hitch and a tieoff on a cordalette between anchor and pulley, to allow for controlled lowers off the anchor in rescue rigging.

[slothrop]

There's a description of the Radium hitch here. Takes a lot of rope to rig that thing.

 

There's a description of an anchor method on that page, "wrap 3, pull 2", that says you shouldn't cross the webbing when tying it, but how can you avoid crossing the strands? I assume you tie the water knot after you've done the wraps.

[Cpt.Caveman]

The knots I use almost 99% of the time are-

 

Clove Hitch

Prusik

Overhand

Figure 8

 

Maybe those were the knots mentioned Donini or whoever was thinking about? I dont see much consistant use in most of my climbing that contains any of the others mentioned that I can currently *heineken brained* think of.

 

There are options for better use of other knots in situations of course. A mule knot ?? I dont know what it is.

[Skisports]

I have gone both ways on this knot, how many people use the overhand knot for rapping and tying their V-threads.

[fleblebleb]

I started wondering what people were using the overhand for, but of course the water knot and the fisherman's are just the overhand. I could believe these are the "most useful" four knots, sure. The mule knot and radisch hitch and high-strength tie-off and whatnot are hardly ever used - I'm sure it's far less than 1% altogether.

[Cpt.Caveman]

The other 1% is when forget my bely device and I use a munter.

[Cpt.Caveman]

an overhand i suspect is sufficient in v thread situation but when rapping off something that is melting icy or quesitonable or plain old every time on ice I use the double fishermans. I guess my previous comments should have said 90% 4 knots then 1% munter and 9% fishermans.

[Skisports]

I use a fishermans all of the time for my V-threads... But when I hook up with the canadains they use an overhand for their V-thread it kinda urks me... Using an overhand to Rap with I started using it recenctly in all situations rock or ice but I have climbing partners that tell me stories of the knot comming untied.. You you heard of any such stories or are the just rummors

 

[fleblebleb]

Somebody died rapping off a big route in Utah not too long ago, ostensibly because the EDK unravelled.

 

You can see for yourself how it might have happened. Tie two strands together using that knot. To trust it you have to pull it supertight, but to see how it can unravel you should leave it a bit loose, then pull the strands in opposite directions - just like the load on the knot when rapping. What happens is that the knot inverts, and the tails become shorter. Repeat a couple of times and you eventually run out of tail and the knot fails.

 

I use really long tails (6-8") and tighten the knot as much as possible, and then I check both the knot and the tails before the next rappel.

 

It's the lesser of two evils to me, I'd rather deal with the possible inverting of the EDK (which I know how to do) than deal with "more" stuck ropes - for almost any definition of "more"...

[Cpt.Caveman]

I think the overhand knot comes untied when it is not dressed correctly * tied with good care and tight enough all around* and that the ends are not long enough.

[fleblebleb]

Do you dress the EDK? How?

 

Somebody taught me that if I were using the EDK to join two ropes with different diameters (like a 7mm rap line to a 10.5 mm single line) then I should tie an overhand in the smaller line, snug against the EDK. I've never joined two ropes like that though, at least not yet.

[Cpt.Caveman]

tight on all 4 strands with *long* ends. I'm not saying it's the safest knot but I use it often when rapelling or tying in half rope mostly. Is an overhand the Euro Death Knot?

[Skisports]

I thought the Euro death knot is the same as a figure 8 but with two ropes tied together.