cracked Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 I do a lot or rock climbing, inside and outside, both sport and trad. (5.12 and 5.10, respectively, for those wondering). I use a beat-up pair of Boreal Aces for everything, and I have yet to find a route that I can climb in my tight, painful, cambered Scarpas and not in my Aces. Yet many people swear that for anything harder than 5.10 you need a high-performance shoe. Now my question is as follows: does this also occur with the plastic vs leather ice boot debate? How many people can climb harder in "high-performance" boots than in "all-around" boots? (Excluding hard mixed, where weight is a huge factor). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 I am under the impression Aces are a high performance shoe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 (edited) Plastics tend to have a sloppy fit when compared to leathers. Even when you crank down on the laces, plastics slip in the heel. Leathers tend to give a better, more snug fit allowing for more sensitivity and better foot work. Â It doesn't make a difference for hacks like myself...either way I suck. Edited December 27, 2002 by Rodchester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted December 27, 2002 Author Share Posted December 27, 2002 Yeah, but what if the liners are replaced with stiffer foam, something like the intuitions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted December 27, 2002 Share Posted December 27, 2002 footwork on hard ice/mixed still isnt quite as precise as footwork on hard rock -- comparing say a WI6 to a 5.12 ...? Or M7 to 5.11? Â I have climbed 5+in plastics without too much trouble (it was alot of work, but mental and just enduring work). I climb ice and mixed in both leather and plastics and find leathers to be more comfortable and lighter, with better "feel"and precision...but you aleady knew that. I like that though, and strive for it. Why wear klunky boots if you dont have to? Â I have climbed 11s and 12s rarely, and found that the shoe depends on the type of climb. So for example you dont need a super technical shoe for red rocks 12s, but you might want one for squamish or index slabby 12. People who tell you you need a technical shoe for 10+ are dependant on gear to help them where they lack in ability (and theres nothing wrong with that...). But people were climbing 5.12 long before LaSportiva Mythos came out! Â The rule of thumb I go on now is I wear the lightest boot possible for the day: nice "warm" day ice climbing means lighter leather boots (Scarpas) while a real cold day (say -25C) means I strap on the heavier but warmer plastics. Â In general I think all the guys in Banff are wearing leather now because mixed is so much more in vogue, and requires much more precision from your boot than std ice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Depends on what kind of 5.12 sport routes you're climbing in your Aces. Sure, you can climb routes like Dreamin', Heinous, Latin Lover, or Take a Powder in your Aces. And you could probably paddle your way up something like Crack Babies or Torrid Zone in them, but why make it difficult on yourself? Aces are F-L-A-T flat, and stiff as boards, for standing on micronothings, which they're presumably great for. But for steep routes where you're doing more pulling with your toes to keep your feet on the rock, or stabbing those ever-so-natural 2-finger pockets at Smith, it's nice to have a pointy, cambered, sensitive shoe. Best believe that! Â What kind of sporty shoes do you have, by the way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted December 30, 2002 Author Share Posted December 30, 2002 After wearing them for three years they are extremely floppy. My sport shoes are Scarpa Dominators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Simpkins Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 I've climbed a few 5.11a's and many 5.10's in my crappy 3 year old, badly needs another resole, soles are peeling off, no edges, overstretched, clunky, LaSportiva Enduro's. Just a few routes off the Enduro tick list: Â Squamish: Fatty Bolger(5.11a), Kangaroo Corner(5.11a), Sole Mate(5.10a/b) Â They are no 5.11d's or 5.12's, but the routes I can't climb are usually do to my lack of talent or my big ass. I've never got spanked because I couldn't get my feet to stick or couldn't hold an edge. Would they have been easier with a better pair of shoes? I don't know. Â My next pair of shoes? Hmmmmmm, you got me thinking......... Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted January 2, 2003 Author Share Posted January 2, 2003 Yeah, rock shoes are simple (now that I've got them figured out), but I am trying to decide what ice boots to buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrenchFree Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Depends on what type of Ice climber you want to be. If you plan to climb M8's and W1 6+ on the same route leather boots make the difference. Personally I think plastic boots climb better on ice once you start doing mixed climbing that’s when leathers make the entire difference. Leather boots are light and not as warm and have more dexterity on the top of the boot. Plastics are heavier warmer and have stiffer tops further more support around the ankle hence you can do French technique as well leathers . Plastics are better for winter climbing in the cascades and overnighters. Leathers are better for approaches. Granted this is climbing you have to have a quiver of every thing to be good at everything. Plastics can do everything well not great so if you want to get one boot for now and call it good I would recommend plastics. If not I would get a pair of Scarpa Vegas and what leather fits your foot. Trango extremes are good Kayland and Salomon are making great leather boots. That’s my two cents. If you have any questions Pm Me. Go Climb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrenchFree Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 One thing to consider is that an M8 is not really 5.11 or whatever people say. It is only a grade that is suppose to feel like a 5.11 so... You could be doing the same route in the summer and could be a 5.10 or 5.8. but thats why they are mixed is because the route isn't climbed durring the summer. So grades are subjective Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jja Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 After getting a pair of the new trango's my scarpa inverno's feel like climbing with cement blocks on my feet - and I'm not putting up any mixed testpieces, I'm just a gumby ice thrasher. The only thing I worry about the leathers is cold feet, I get them fairly easily. So far so good, but I haven't used them in really cold conditions yet. Â The best solution it seems would be to have both plastic and leather if you can swing the bucks. Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 (edited) Cracked, Â I recently switched from heavy leather boots to realatively light Sportiva S boots with neumatic crampons for waterfall ice climbing. They work awsome. As far as I am concerned, light weight boots work just as well than heavier/more supportive boots, if not better. Feels more like ice climbing in a rock shoe than a big clunkin boot. Â I have plastics, but rarely use them. Only for extended trips in cold conditions. For most ice cragin' routes, light boots are the way to go...way more fun to climb in. Â Two drawbacks are that the old ankles get fatigued a bit quicker, and the half synthetic boots get wet throughout the day...but not anymore so than waffle stomper leathers... Â Oh, and my feet were warm in the S's on a 15 degree f day and cold on a 30 degree f day. Go figure...I think it had more to do with my socks and moisture than the air temps. Â Have fun! Edited January 4, 2003 by Lambone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted January 5, 2003 Author Share Posted January 5, 2003 What are your heavy leathers? I already have the Sportiva Eiger (new version of the Karakoram), and have found that the flex, using Grivel G12's, is noticeable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleblebleb Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 At least you have a good pair of crampons  Do you think your ice climbing would improve significantly if you got the perfect boot? I have never worn the boots you have but I could believe they would be hard to improve on for alpine ice routes in WA.  If you're going to do extensive frontpointing, i.e. steep, sustained ice, then a full shank boot is going to work better but it's going to be a lot less comfortable to hike in.  If you want to do alpine rock routes in winter then I would imagine a lighter boot, with a small toe and only newmatics-compatible, would work best.  Oh, and then there are some boots out there that have no insulation and are just a full shank with crampon grooves and enough leather to attach the whole thing to your foot. You might want to move to Canmore first though, heh.  Hey Lambone, isn't the flex kind of irritating? Wouldn't you rather have a lightweight full shank boot? Curious... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted January 5, 2003 Share Posted January 5, 2003 I have an old pair of Karakorams, my second pair actually. My original K2's fell apart and Sportiva replaced them. Nice boots, but they make my feet hurt like hell and they weight too much for my chicken legs to lug around. Â I noticed little flex in the sole with the G14 combined with the Sportiva S. But the anckles flex a ton, and that is definately noticable. I used them on stuff from WI2 ramps, to Wi5 pillars, and they has advantages on both. They were least comfortable on smooth WI3 flows that were about 70-80 degrees steep and had little foot placements (i.e. more straight frontpointing). I used them 5 days in a row, by the 5th day my anckles and calfves were getting a little sore. Â I've used three different types of plastic boots and 4 or 5 different leather boots in my ice climbing experience. The Sportiva S is the funnest boot ive climbed in. Compared to most Ice boots, you hardly know they are on your feet. And they are so much more comfy on the approach. My partners both had cold toes in their plastic boots, while I was warm 90% of the time. For a really long route, like Polar Circus or something, I'd probably prefer the Trango Extreme. Â Anyway, I'll be using them up in Lilooet...if it ever freezes up there...hope that helps. Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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