NPR "Enviro-science"

[RobBob]

Well, they did it again. Early this morning on NPR, I hear a story about the current administration's move to simplify the waste management requirements for livestock farming. Of course, the cynical reactions by environmentalists were included, and the reporter's voice was raised in emphasis as he listed the millions of pounds of manure that is generated by livestock each year in the US.

 

Well no shit! (heheh.) We have 280 million people in the US, and most of them want to eat meat. And those 280 million people also do their own share of excretion. What I don't like about the enviro battles over livestock is the disingenuous way that they are waged. The real issue with hog farming, for instance, is ODOR. Yet the game is played over potential water pollution that has not happened. (The 'emergency' discharge of un- or under-treated human waste from municipalities into the nation's waters is like 1 million to 1 over animal waste discharges.)

 

Environmentalists do not want simple, effective rules for US livestock production. They just want to hamstring producers to the point that they shut down. All the talk about wanting to preserve the "family farm" is bullshit, because family farmers are the first to be unable to cope with the growing morass of paperwork. Eventually the "corporate" farms will move their production more and more to Asia and Latin America, removing a large part of the nation's food supply from its borders.

 

This is a bad trend for several reasons. We do a much more thorough job of inspecting food produced within the US than we do with imported food. The USDA, NMFS, and FDA are in every animal and seafood processing facility within the US, but only visually inspect a small fraction of incoming meat and seafood. Secondly, it is a security risk to move a 280 million-person nation's food supply outside its borders. Thirdly, we are only exporting the "pollution problems" we supposedly seek to control, moving them to third world nations. These are the same nations who want us to spend our $80% to remediate pollution the final 20%, while they fail to spend the first $20% to remediate their first 80% of pollution.

 

The fair and effective way to deal with this is to really get all nations to buy into the same environmental economics. As long as we have "equal opportunity" environmental politics for the third world, then we will continue to see unregulated pollution and its attendant problems in the third world.

 

I submit to you that pushing our animal agriculture overseas is ineffective in the context of global environmental management. In a way, it is arrogant on our part. It also poses potential health risks due to a much lower level of inspection. It is also a security blunder. Like a number of other environmental cost-benefit issues, we need to look at our food supply strategically and unemotionally before we bang the enviro drum.

[freeclimb9]

The real issue with hog farming, for instance, is ODOR

Actually, the real issue with corporate hog farming is water table contamination and disease control.

[RobBob]

This is what I mean. The real issue IS odor and image. Water table contamination and disease control are "what if" arguments put forth to combat the hog industry. If you want to stymie an industry, force it to constantly prove what it is NOT doing. This is the way environmentalists are attacking the hog producers.

 

There is nothing wrong with the 'not in my backyard' argument. It's an honest, defensible one. Hog farms stink; I once lived relatively close to one, and from that experience I wouldn't want one in my backyard. So fight the hog industry on the basis of your concerns, just don't believe everything you read or hear from the environmentalists who are using other (disingenuous) tools to do so.

 

If groundwater and watershed contamination are our biggest concerns, then lets focus on what is discharged most often: human excrement. But that's a much more personally expensive subject for the armchair environmentalist, because it eventually affects our own pocketbook in the form of taxes. If disease control is a major issue, let's deal with sexually-transmitted diseases in a much more scientific and assertive manner and forego the politics of STDs.

[offwidthclimber]

most human waste goes through treatment centers. it's not generally just pumped into rivers or aquifers in its raw state.

 

lots of hog waste ends up getting into the aquifer or rivers/streams in its raw form, without treatment. this can also lead to disease, which as freeclimb9 indicated, is also a problem.

 

i know a couple dairy/hog farming families. at least here in idaho, odor's not too much of a problem, except when some developer plops a new neighborhood near a farm. it's more about the water issue. at least that what it seems the EPA writes the most fines for...

 

peace,

[RobBob]

But hey offwidth, I really believe you are absorbing what the environmentalists build media headlines about. Human waste goes into treatment centers, where it goes through primary and secondary treatment. Weather events, overloads, and plain management screw-ups cause discharge of primary-treated and even raw human sewage into the watershed across the US---often. It is definitely happening, particularly during rainy periods! But it is not a headline grabber, because the scapegoat of the story would be...us.

 

I challenge anyone to point to real evidence of significant acquifer contamination from livestock operations. This is a 'scary spectre' story that forces the target of the story to defend itself. You know how that works---by the time the defendent proves himself innocent, the damage to his reputation is done.

 

And don't let people tell you that agriculture and industry are the bad guys in aquifer depletion, either. The fastest-growing user of aquifer water is---we residential/commercial users. You can look at depletion-zone cones on maps, and the majority of them are centered on municipal areas due to their water supply. But who is cutting back on water use in their home? People are building bigger houses, with multiple shower-heads in their showers. (I wonder how many shower heads are in Bill Gates' home?)

 

I am not in the livestock business, but I do have a pretty good working knowledge about watersheds and about aquifers across the US.

[iain]

Just be a vegetarian. Any problems with livestock, potential or otherwise, are on your moral shoulders now. I'd point to the Ogallala aquifier in western Nebraska as one that has been severely depleted, I would say mostly due to agricultural uses. As for hogshit runoff...please explain why you don't think this is a problem.

 

As for water depletion, there's plenty of places to point fingers. The Colorado R. for instance is depleted both for Vegas and L.A. municiple use, but also for those multimillion dollar farming operations in the middle of the f'ing desert.

[Greg_W]

Raise your own beef, it's healthier, cheaper, and super-tasty.

[iain]

I live in an apartment. I might be able to tie ol' bessy up to the mailbox though, I'll look into it.

[Greg_W]

Gee, Iain, it doesn't sound like you're too committed to solving this problem.

[offwidthclimber]

Weather events, overloads, and plain management screw-ups cause discharge of primary-treated and even raw human sewage into the watershed across the US---often.

 

This is true.

 

 

I challenge anyone to point to real evidence of significant acquifer contamination from livestock operations. This is a 'scary spectre' story that forces the target of the story to defend itself.

 

i don't have any figures, but my point is that contamination is the biggest threat or problem, not that it occurs on a monumental scale.

 

 

And don't let people tell you that agriculture and industry are the bad guys in aquifer depletion, either. The fastest-growing user of aquifer water is---we residential/commercial users. You can look at depletion-zone cones on maps, and the majority of them are centered on municipal areas due to their water supply. But who is cutting back on water use in their home? People are building bigger houses, with multiple shower-heads in their showers. (I wonder how many shower heads are in Bill Gates' home?)

 

I am not in the livestock business, but I do have a pretty good working knowledge about watersheds and about aquifers across the US.

 

well, you don't have to convince me there. yes, humans are putting more pressure on water supplies. but i'm not arguing that point. i simply tried to assert that water pollution is one of the biggest problems facing livestock farmers in today's environmental/political atmosphere.

 

i have relatives who are ranchers and farmers. i also have a BS in Env. Sci... I've spent enough time listening to radical idiots on both extremes of the spectrum to generally know a crap argument or sensationalism when i see it.

 

cheers

[Greg_W]

Build a moisture farm like on Tattoine.

[RobBob]

Cheers, offwidth. I'm not a lobbyist for agriculture, mind you, I'm just for honesty in the debate. And one hard spin that I believe has been put over on the American public is this spectre, as Iain puts it, of 'hog shit runoff.' Currently, the standard waste mgt practice for large hog operations is anaerobic, lined lagoons. Unless there is a failure of the lagoon (i.e., a levee breeches), there is no 'hog shit runoff.' But I understand how the average citizen would believe that there is, based on our news media's reporting of environmentalists' assertions.

 

Iain, I agree that row-crop agriculture has traditionally been a big water user, but I believe that overall you would find that ag water use is actually declining due to BMPs, rather than advancing. However, residential/commercial water use is rising fast. Hell, Boone Pickens wants to build a pipeline from his ranch in west Texas in order to sell water to the Dallas-Fort Worth area!

[allthumbs]

Hey, hogshitrunoff would make a good avatar for someone.

[RobBob]

Bullshitrunoff would make a good alternative name for Spray

[iain]

I'm not familiar enough with the issue I guess. Couple thousand hawgs in close proximity can't be good though.

[iain]

then again think of the markups we'd see on Denny's grandslam breakfasts...

[Jim]

RobBob,

 

Sorry dude but you obviously have no real connection to these issues or you wouldn't be spouting off such hogwash (heh-heh). Have you even read the Administrative Rule that you're talking about? Do you have any concept how CWA 401 rules are inacted regarding agriculture? From your posts, I doubt it. There's often a few curve balls tossed out like this with no grain in truth by armchair critics with no real-world experience in the issues.

While in some cases residential water users are putting greater demands on ground water it is the historical, inefficient use of agriculture water that has depleted large aquifers such as the Olgala.

 

I'd suggest you stick to asking questions about how to boldly lead your next 5.4.

[allthumbs]

Don't be such a smart ass Jimbo.

[Jim]

Your right Trask. Sorry about the tag line. It's is very frustrating to see either uninformed opinions, or blatant lies put forth as first hand knowledge. Well, just human nature and the internet coming together I guess.

[RobBob]

Jim,

 

What the fuck are you talking about, and from what pulpit are you preaching?

[Jim]

RobBob,

 

Just from field experience and experience with implementing 401 Water Quality Permits, NPDES Permits, water quality sampling, riparian vegetation assessments, etc. etc, regarding agricultural discharge into surface waters in about 7 different states. What I'm talking about is acutually reading the Admistrative Rule that you're talking about. You may be a smart guy and may be able digest all the information. My main point is that your post shows that you don't know the issues and have not read the Administrative Rule that your spouting off about (hate ending sentences in prepositions).

[RobBob]

I guess once again we see the ire stirred deep within the enviro-scientist. My credentials are that I operate a business in with I deal with the rules and regulations of several states' divisions of environmental management, both on the air and water quality side. I am a civil engineer by training. I aim to be a prudent user of resources, as well as a fairly-well-informed person, and I am involved in the stakeholder process of DEM issues in those states.

 

Those are my credentials. What are yours, pussnuts?

[RobBob]

I see that you replied before I did, and are trying to 'cheers' your way out of having popped off. Next you'll be going back and editing your personally offensive original post.

 

Fuck you, kid. You're way off base. Your tirade reaction only proves my point, that so many people emotionally launch themselves at stopping other people from doing things, yet fail to walk the talk themselves. You neatly put yourself in that category by failing to fact-find before you popped off.

[Jim]

BS Natural Resource Mgmt, MS Wildlife Ecology. 22 Years experience in natural resource mgmt, wildlife ecology, wetlands, riparian ecology, water quality permiting issues, field assessments. About 35 papers published in peer-reviewed scientific journals, 30 papers given at natural resource conferences, and a lot of time spent mucking around in the field. And yea, I don't mind an honest difference of opinion if the facts are put forth. What gets my dander up is slanting of the basic facts, to the right or left, to pad an argument. Cheers.

[Greg_W]

What's 22 years of experience in light of the fact that many people believe that the Earth is hundreds of millions of years old? Poseur. Sheesh. I'm with you RobBob